The United States Senate Race in Alabama and the Culture Wars; Plus the Issues Dogging Roy Moore and the Problem of Evangelical Christians Embracing an Alleged Child Molester

Roy Moore is involved in a controversial Senate race in Alabama. Moore a favorite of evangelicals for fighting their culture wars and was hit with allegations of child molestation by the Washington Post. As the scandal grew many evangelicals dug in and reaffirmed their support of Roy Moore. Russell Moore from the Southern Baptist’s ERLC got involved in tearing apart Roy Moore’s evangelical defenders. Today’s post at The Wondering Eagle deals with the controversial Senate race in Alabama, evangelical Christianity’s culture wars,  the issue of child molestation, and national politics all clashing together. 

“Evangelicals have no integrity. They pretend to have superior morals, but then vote for sexual predators like Trump and Moore. How can anyone respect their religious beliefs when they toss them aside for political gain?”

For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? -Mark 8:36

Online comment in the Washington Post regarding the evangelical support for Roy Moore 

Well, Doctor, what have we got—a Republic or a Monarchy?”

  “A Republic, if you can keep it.

Dr. James McHenry asks a question to Benjamin Franklin in Philadelphia and gets a response. 

For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

Mark 8:36 KJV should be remembered by evangelicals who are pursuing their goals by politics. 

*** This is the first of two posts, I will likely get the other post up tomorrow***

The United States Capitol at night. 

There is a lot of ground to cover. I am writing about this issue due to the way this has exploded and the way evangelical Christians have been prominently featured. The situation with Roy Moore illustrates why parts of evangelicalism are morally bankrupt, lost, and dangerous. There is a lot to look at but let’s start with discussing who Roy Moore is. 

 

Who is Roy Moore? 

Roy Moore was born in Gadsden, Alabama. He went to the United States Military Academy at West Point where he picked up a Bachelor of Science degree in 1969. Moore served in Vietnam and was discharged at the rank of Captain in 1974. He enrolled in the University of Alabama Law School and graduated with a J.D. and started to practice law in Gadsden. His legal focus was on personal injury and insurance. Moore began to work for the district attorneys office as a prosecutor for Etowah County. Moore eventually quit to run for the circuit county judge seat in 1982 and lost. He made a couple of additional efforts at running for local public office and didn’t win. He returned to Gadsden and married his wife in 1985. In 1992 Etowah County Circuit Judge died in office and Moore was eventually appointed to fill out the position. Moore believed that God wanted him to take over that role. When he was up for re-election as the incumbent he won. Moore won as a Republican and was the first county wide Republican to win sin the county since the days of Reconstruction following the Civil War.

When Moore began his tenure as a circuit judge he installed a wooden plaque of the Ten Commandments on the wall behind him. He also opened court sessions with prayer. Eventually the ACLU learned of this and sent a representative to record the prayers. In time Moore claimed that he was being persecuted, and he used the situation to win re-election in a landslide win. In 1995 the ACLU filed a lawsuit against Roy Moore stating that court prayer and posting the Ten Commandments are unconstitutional. Alabama Governor Fob James ordered the state attorney general to support Moore. Eventually it was decided by the Alabama State Circuit Judge that the prayers had to stop but that the Ten Commandments could remain. Moore vowed to appeal. In 1999 the American Family Association worked at drafting Roy Moore for the Alabama Supreme Court race. Moore declared he is a candidate on December 7, 1999 and later on won the race. Moore’s opponent elicited the help of Karl Rove who advised George W Bush in Texas. Moore then had another monument out of granite constructed. It showed the Ten Commandments and had quotes from the Declaration of Independence and various founding fathers. It was installed in the rotunda of the Alabama Supreme Court building on July 31, 2001. Coral Ridge Ministries of Dr. James Kennedy filmed the installation and sold the tapes for profit. The money raised would be used for the coming legal battles. When it was unveiled Moore said the following, “Today a cry has gone out across our land for the acknowledgment of that God upon whom this nation and our laws were founded… May this day mark the restoration of the moral foundation of law to our people and the return to the knowledge of God in our land.” At this point Moore was becoming a favorite of many evangelical Christians. On October 30, 3001 the ACLU of Alabama, Americans United for Separation of Church and State and the Southern Poverty Law Center filed a lawsuit in United States District Court for the Middle District of Alabama. The trial Glassroth vs. Moore began on October 15, 2002. Moore argued that he would not remove the Ten Commandment monument because it violated his oath of office. Moore argued that the Ten Commandments are the moral foundation of the United States. He claimed, “[The monument] serves to remind the Appellate Courts and judges of the Circuit and District Court of this State and members of the bar who appear before them, as well as the people of Alabama who visit the Alabama Judicial Building, of the truth stated in the Preamble to the Alabama Constitution that in order to establish justice we must invoke ‘the favor and guidance of almighty God’ On November 18, 2002 the federal district judge ruled against Moore. He was found to have violated the establishment clause of the United States Constitution. He had created a religious atmosphere which also made for a hostile work environment leaving some employees uncomfortable. The judge mandated that the monument be removed by January 3, 2003. Moore turned around and appealed to the United States Eleventh Circuit Court of Appeals in Atlanta, Georgia. His appeal was argued and on July 1, 2003 the court upheld the federal district judge’s decision ordering the monument removed. Judge Thompson who originally ruled against Moore told him that the Ten Commandment monument was to be out of the building by August 20, 2003. On August 16, 2003 Moore held a rally at the Alabama Supreme Court building. About 4,000 people came to listen to Moore as well as the late Jerry Falwell, and Alan Keyes speak. Moore vowed to defy the judge and that the monument would not be removed. Each day the deadline passed Alabama was fined $5,000 a day. On August 23, Alabama Judicial Inquiry Commission filed a complaint with the Alabama Court of the Judiciary over Moore’s legal conduct. Moore used his time before the committee to rant about the importance of God in the United States. On November 13, 2003 the Alabama Judicial Inquiry Commission in a unanimous decision found him in violation of the Alabama Cannon of Judicial Ethics. He was ordered to be removed by the Supreme Court. Moore appealed his removal to the Alabama Supreme Court who also ruled against him. With that Moore was removed from office. 

In March of 2012 Moore ran again for the Alabama Supreme Court position and won in the primary and the general election in November. When Moore went into office the issue of gay marriage was becoming heated. Moore issued a probate to judges and their employees across the state of Alabama ordering them to uphold gay marriage restrictions and to ignore a federal court decision about gay marriage. Before this happened the Southern Poverty Law Center filed a judicial ethics complaint saying that he was speaking publicly about gay marriage before and could not be impartial. On February 9, the United States Supreme Court upheld the federal court decision. With Moore’s order that judges and employees were not to follow the court’s decision probate judges in Birmingham, Montgomery, and Huntsville rejected Moore’s decision and proceeded to follow the federal court decision. The Alabama Judicial Inquiry Commission again forwarded six complaints dealing with Moore to the Alabama Court of the Judiciary. Those six complaints are the following: 

  1. Disregarding a federal injunction.
  2. Demonstrated unwillingness to follow clear law.
  3. Abuse of administrative authority.
  4. Substituting his judgment for the judgement of the entire Alabama Supreme Court, including failure to abstain from public comment about a pending proceeding in his own court.
  5. Interference with legal process and remedies in the United States District Court and/or Alabama Supreme Court related to proceedings in which Alabama probate judges were involved.
  6. Failure to recuse himself from pending proceedings in the Alabama Supreme Court after making public comment and placing his impartiality into question.

Moore turned around and filed a lawsuit against the Judicial Inquiry Commission arguing that his automatic suspension was unconstitutional. Moore was represented by his attorneys in Liberty Counsel. I recently wrote about Liberty Counsel inWhen Evangelical Christians Export their Culture Wars Abroad: Kim Davis and Liberty Counsel Fighting Gay Marriage in Romania.” In September of 2016 Roy Moore as Alabama Supreme Court justice was suspended for ordering probate judges to defy the federal orders regarding gay marriage.  He was suspended for the remainder of the term. Moore filed an appeal and continued to be represented by Liberty Counsel. On April 20, 2017 the Alabama Supreme Court upheld Moore’s suspension. On April 26, 2017 Moore resigned from the Alabama Supreme Court and declared that he would run against Luther Strange for the United States Senate. 

 

Evangelicals and their Culture Wars

The term culture war was popularized by James Davison Hunter who is the LaBrosse-Levinson Distinguished Professor of Religion, Culture, and Social Theory at the University of Virginia. He broke new ground in 1991 with his bookCulture Wars: The Struggle to Define America.For evangelical Christians they erroneously claim that their culture wars started with the legalization of abortion om 1973. That is not true as it was the threat of Bob Jones University in South Carolina losing funding due to its policy of segregation that triggered the culture wars. To read more you can do so inRecommended Read: Politico on Evangelical Culture Wars; It Wasn’t the Legalization of Abortion that Triggered them it was the Threat of Bob Jones University Losing its Funding due to its Segregation Practices.” I would say that the main thrust of the evangelical culture wars has been in fighting for “school prayer”, making abortion illegal, prevent the acceptance of gay people in the United States, push a creationist agenda and accept a literal view of creation. If I missed any please let me know. The purpose for the evangelical culture wars deal with the ability to rally around a cause and demonize a foe. In creating an enemy you create a justification for your existence. The culture wars also have made money for the fringe of evangelicalism in my opinion. People have profited off conflict as well. I personally see the culture wars as being useless and that they show many evangelical Christians immaturity. When I see how some Christians respond to an abortion clinic or a bookstore selling pornography I often wonder, how would these individuals exist in the days of Rome? Did the Christians in Rome wage culture wars? The tragedy of the culture wars is that they are a losing proposition. Christians won’t win them, and the last time they won one (Prohibition in the early 20th century) it backfired spectacularly. The damage of the culture wars is that they alienate many parts of the population and drive people away from the church. They are subjective and flawed in their approach. I think we are seeing the final gasp of the culture wars from evangelicals in their embrace of Donald Trump. Though its hard to talk about morality when you embrace someone who boasted of grabbing someone’s pussy and posed with the cover of Playboy behind them. Yes Ronald Reagan was divorced, but Reagan was a different individual and in embracing Trump, many evangelicals have thrown Ronald Reagan under the bus. I find all this profoundly sad. The culture wars are unique to Roy Moore in how they have played out and what is going on in the United States Senate race. Roy Moore has said a lot of things over the top. He claims that September 11, happened because the united States distanced ourselves from God. He also said that sharia law is being practiced in the United States and still believes that former President Obama is from Kenya. Here is a list of the most outrageous things Roy Moore has said.  Despite some dark and disturbing allegations many evangelicals have embraced Roy Moore and are rallying around him. Let’s stop and look at the situation. 

 

The Washington Post Allegations 

Roy Moore had committed a major upset in defeating Luther Strange in the Alabama Republican primary. On November 9, 2017 reporters Beth Reinhard, Stephanie McCrummen, and Alice Crites broke a very disturbing story for the Washington Post. The newspaper reported that Roy Moore allegedly initiated a sexual encounter with a girl who was 14. Leigh Corfman was allegedly approached by Roy Moore as she sat on a wooden bench outside the Etowah County court room. This behavior allegedly occurred in 1979. Roy Moore allegedly touched the young girl inappropriately over her bra and underpants and encouraged Leigh to touch the judge’s erect penis.  In the case of the other individuals they were asked out on dates when Moore was in his 30’s and they in the ages of 16 to 18. Moore allegedly approached them at the Gadsden Mall. To read The Washington Post story in its entirety you can do so in “Woman says Roy Moore initiated sexual encounter when she was 14, he was 32.” Politico in writing about how the Washington Post broke the story had this to say from a prominent Columbia School of Journalism professor. 

Bill Grueskin, a Columbia School of Journalism professor who previously served as one of The Wall Street Journal’s top editors, said he couldn’t recall a story that had so carefully explained how it came to be and bullet-proofed itself. It’s like the reporters had “this checklist of how people tried to disparage or diminish a story about a politician,” Grueskin said, and “checked off each one to make sure it wouldn’t apply in this case.”

“It’s a brilliant move, and it’s something I would want to teach here at Columbia Journalism School,” Grueskin said. “The Republican political establishment that you would expect to come to Moore’s defense has been basically left open-mouthed. They don’t have the kind of tools in their toolbox they would normally use to diminish a story like this.”

In time it was also learned that Roy Moore was allegedly banned from the Gadsden’s mall. 

 

 

Evangelical Christians in Alabama Embracing Roy Moore in Spite of Alleged Child Molestation, Plus Additional Allegations of a Sexual Assault 

As the Washington Post allegations turned the Alabama Senate race upside down the stunning behavior by many evangelical Christians in Alabama began to be noticed by the press. The Hill reported that 40% of evangelicals in Alabama were more inclined to vote for Roy Moore after hearing that he allegedly molested a 14 year old. Evangelicals began to rally around Roy Moore. You can read more in “Poll: 37 percent of Alabama evangelicals more likely to vote for Moore after allegations.” As a couple of more women came forward many evangelical Christians in Alabama circled the wagons around Roy Moore. The fifth accuser, Beverly Young Nelson, described what was almost like an alleged rape whereas the following day her neck was black and blue. Beverly produced a high school year book that had Roy Moore’s signature. You can read about this in the New York Times article called, “Roy Moore Is Accused of Sexual Misconduct by a Fifth Woman.Many evangelical pastors spoke out about the allegations and questioning their timing. Why after all these years are they coming out now? Why not the local press? Why is this coming from the national press? In addition many evangelicals started to attack the sexual assault victims and going after them. You can read more about that in Huffington Post’s “Roy Moore’s Base Is Sticking With Him, Attacking Those Who Attack Him.” Plus many pastors in Alabama signed a letter that declared their support for Roy Moore. It was shared by Roy Moore’s wife on her personal Facebook page. 50 pastors had their names attached and then four asked to be removed from the list. “Kayla Moore posts support from 50 pastors; 4 ask for their names to be removed.The pastors appear to be a mix of Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (James Lester of Fannin Road Baptist Church in Montgomery; Thad Endicott of Heritage Baptist Church in Opelika; and Mike Allison of Madison Baptist Church in Madison)Congregational Methodist (Bruce Jenkins of Young’s Chapel in Piedmont) Restored Church of God (Rick and Beverly Simpson of Summit Holiness Church in Millbrook) Free Presbyterian Church of America (Myron Mooney of Trinity Presbyterian Church in Trinity)  Southern Baptist (John McCrummen of Open Door Baptist of Enterprise) Assembly of God (Lane and Margie Simmons of First Assembly of God in Greenville) and Non-denominational (Jim Nelson of Church of the Living God in Moulton) 

Here is how the letter opens up. I would encourage you to read the full list of supporters on the website. 


Dear friends and fellow Alabamians,

For decades, Roy Moore has been an immovable rock in the culture wars – a bold defender of the “little guy,” a just judge to those who came before his court, a warrior for the unborn child, defender of the sanctity of marriage, and a champion for religious liberty. Judge Moore has stood in the gap for us, taken the brunt of the attack, and has done so with a rare, unconquerable resolve.

As a consequence of his unwavering faith in God and his immovable convictions for Biblical principles, he was ousted as Chief Justice in 2003. As a result, he continued his life pursuit by starting the Foundation for Moral Law, which litigates religious liberty cases around our Nation. After being re-elected again to Chief Justice in 2012, by an overwhelming majority, he took another round of persecution for our faith as he stood up for the sanctity of marriage between one man and one woman.

You can know a man by his enemies, and he’s made plenty – from the radical organizations such as the Southern Poverty Law Center and the ACLU to the liberal media and a handful of establishment politicians from Washington. He has friends too, a lot of them. They live all across this great State, work hard all week, and fill our pews on Sunday. They know him as a father, a grandfather, a man who loves God’s Word and knows much of it by heart, a man who cares for the people, a man who understands our Constitution in the tradition of our Founding Fathers, and a man who deeply loves America. It’s no wonder the Washington establishment has declared all-out war on his campaign.

 

A Dark Race in United States History 

The Senate race in Alabama was already dark before the molestation allegations and other abuse hit the campaign. Steve Bannon the controversial Breitbart editor who advised Donald Trump has advised Roy Moore. When Roy Moore beat Luther Strange in the Alabama Republican primary Britbart was glowing in the defeat. After the allegations came out against Roy Moore Steve Bannon vowed to defend Moore and sent Britbart operatives out to discredit the accusers. You can read more about that in Politico’s “Roy Moore Is Pure Steve Bannon.” What makes this Senate race so dark is the threats of actions that are discussed if Roy Moore wins. There is talk that if Moore wins that the United States Senate would expel him. Senator Cory Gardner of Colorado first raised this on November 13, 2017. If this occurs this will be the first time such action will have been taken since the American Civil War. After the Civil War began in April of 1861 the Democratic Senators from Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Tennessee, Arkansas, Texas, Missouri John C Breckenridge of Kentucky and James Blight of Indiana were expelled for supporting the Confederacy.  In Washington, D.C. many Republicans are distancing themselves from Moore. Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell stated that Moore would face an ethics investigation upon winning. Other reactions were just as bold and here is a brief run down. John Kennedy from Louisiana told Moore to stop lying and come clean. Lindsay Graham of South Carolina said that if Moore is barred from a mall in Alabama he should be barred from the Senate. Todd Young from Indiana said that the Senate should work at protecting its integrity.  Senators Ted Cruz and John Cornyn of Texas, Bill Cassidy of Louisiana, Mike Lee of Utah and Steve Daines of Montana all withdrew their endorsement of Roy Moore. Meanwhile in the House of Representatives the leader of the National Republican Congressional Committee called for the embattled Alabama Senate candidate to withdraw.  In Alabama many Republicans stood by Moore and his wife complained that they were being persecuted by the mainstream media. The three largest newspapers in Alabama in editorials called for Moore to withdraw from the race. 

 

Russell Moore Enters into the Alabama Race Swinging 

As the Senate race scandal dragged on and grew another aspect developed on November 13, 2017. After the fifth woman Beverly Young Nelson reported on how Moore allegedly assaulted her Russell Moore (not to be confused with Roy Moore) took to Twitter and challenged Alabama evangelicals. Russell Moore is the President of the Southern Baptist Convention’s Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission. Moore tore into Alabama evangelicals for putting politics above women and standing up for the vulnerable. Moore’s Tweets actually got some attention by the political and traditional press. The Hill wrote about this in “Top evangelical leader tears into Roy Moore’s defenders.” Plus the Los Angeles Times which is covering Roy Moore’s campaign also wrote about Russell Moore’s response in “The Roy Moore controversy is a thorny issue for Alabama Baptists.” You can see Russell Moore’s tweets up above. 

Saturday Night Live on Roy Moore scandal

We Got into this Situation Because of Evangelical Christian Support of Donald Trump. Dismissal of the Access Hollywood Tape Opened the Door to Roy Moore 

The question must be asked…how did we get here? How did we get to the point that you have an alleged child molester running for the United States Senate and many evangelicals throwing their support behind him? I think the issue goes back to Donald Trump and the way evangelicals embraced him. The warning signs with Donald Trump are dark…he actually boasted of rape and many evangelicals embraced him anyway. Actually on election day in 2016 81% of evangelicals did so. Many apparently were not bothered by his comments as to how you “grab them by the pussy.” 19 women have come forward and alleged horrific behavior but that doesn’t seem to bother evangelicals. Perhaps that is why many evangelicals in Alabama are dismissing Beverly Young Nelson or Leigh Corfman. For many evangelicals sexual assault or child molestation appears not to be a moral issue at all. Does this Senate race in Alabama explain why the Southern Baptist convention is awash in the problem of child sex abuse? Does this explain other parts of evangelicalism as well? After all if you are not going to care about a Donald Trump voter who makes a serious and credible allegation against Roy Moore, why would you care about a Sunday School teacher or worship leader who molests a child in a church in Alabama? The Senate race in my view is a dark indicator as to how unhealthy and downright toxic many parts of evangelicalism is. But we are in this situation today because of evangelical Christians. When they embraced Donald Trump that opened the door to embrace Roy Moore. It is a natural progression. You do not have to go that far from the issue of rape to the issue of alleged child molestation.  And yet many evangelicals believe the United States or the world is lost? 

 

Why Many Evangelical Christians are Spiritually Lost and Morally Bankrupt; If People are Comfortable with what Moore Allegedly did Why is Child Molestation Illegal? 

As I do my final section on this post let’s look at the state of American evangelicalism. The situation in Alabama reveals that it is quite toxic. For me it indicates that many evangelicals are profoundly lost, confused and morally bankrupt. The fact remains that you have a choice between an alleged child molester vs. a conservative Democrat, and many evangelicals are supporting the alleged child molester. This is a not complicated, and its an easy choice, yet the fact remains that many evangelicals are stuck in this tunnel vision. Its profoundly sad that they speak of abortion and yet as you can read above in the culture war section, abortion didn’t even trigger the culture war! For me this also is another indicator of the scandal of the evangelical mind. The fact that many evangelicals in Alabama can not think critically about these issue only confirms that deep entrenched problems of evangelicalism. You can read more about the scandal of the evangelical mind in “From Mormonism in Montana to Sovereign Grace in the Washington, D.C. Area; The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind Comes Full Circle.” What evangelicals have done has been to trade the Christian faith for a new quasi-political party that marries the worst aspects of both. The effects of this are profound in that it is driving people away and giving many atheists legitimate reasons to tear apart the Christian faith. There is nothing resembling the Christian faith since many evangelicals married the two together. When I see how some Christians are reacting to gay marriage it leaves me to wonder, how would some of these people thrive in Rome? For me I firmly believe that faith should be completely divorced from politics. Christian pastors should not speak about it, they should not openly talk about it, they should focus on other things. That comment in the Washington Post that leads this post is a perfect description of modern evangelicalism.

In seeing how many evangelicals are reacting in Alabama to the situation with Roy Moore its led me to ask the following question. Why is child molestation illegal? If they think that what Moore allegedly did is natural and fine, why are there laws on the books? This has been something that I have spent some time thinking about and I just can not get this at all. The other issue I would like to point out is that the situation with Roy Moore is not about gay marriage or abortion. For me it turns the spotlight on places like   Congregational Methodist (Bruce Jenkins of Young’s Chapel in Piedmont) or Free Presbyterian Church of America (Myron Mooney of Trinity Presbyterian Church in Trinity)  Southern Baptist (John McCrummen of Open Door Baptist of Enterprise) Assembly of God (Lane and Margie Simmons of First Assembly of God in Greenville). The Independent Fundamentalist Baptist denomination is a cess pool, we all know that.  The fact that they are supporting Moore should come as no surprise. But what about the Southern Baptist, Congregational Methodist, Free Presybeterian Church or Assembly of God? Here is the question I would like to ask..is Bruce Jenkins church have problems with child sex abuse? Has it been dealt with in a way that Bruce is dismissive of the allegations facing Roy Moore? What John McCummen’s Southern Baptist Church? Does that church have sexual assault issues? Is that why they are supporting Roy Moore? Again these are questions I am asking out loud, I am not saying anything definitive about Young’s Chapel or Open Door Baptist? I will throw this offer on the table…if there are issues in any of these churches supporting Roy Moore I will be happy to write about them and discuss them.  For me this is a dark post to write but it begs questions. When it comes to evangelicals and politics these are issues that deserve attention and discussion. Its my sincere hope that Christians in Alabama will vote against Roy Moore. That they will come to their senses and realize the enormity of the problem. Well that is it for the day, know that I care about you guys! 

24 thoughts on “The United States Senate Race in Alabama and the Culture Wars; Plus the Issues Dogging Roy Moore and the Problem of Evangelical Christians Embracing an Alleged Child Molester

  1. I am neither for, nor against Roy Moore. I’m not from Alabama.

    But, I am supporting his political run for Senate. Why?

    JUSTICE.

    Seems that today’s JUSTICE is out of whack with the JUSTICE that we USED TO HAVE.

    I was raised with the slogan INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN guilty.

    I was also raised with the notion that if people accuse someone of a crime, the accused has a RIGHT, by the Constitution, to face his accusers in a court of law.

    I am also reminded of the Salem Witch Hunt’s, in which many were accused of being a witch, and were condemned to die for a false accusation.

    I am also reminded that by the mouth of two or three FALSE witnesses, Jesus died on a cross.

    I am also reminded that Joseph was older than Mary, and HOW OLD WAS MARY? Was Joseph a pedophile?

    How old was LORETTA LYNN when she got married? Hint: Younger than 14 and it was LEGAL.

    How old was the bride of Jerry Lee Lewis when she got married?

    We seem to be pushing today’s values on to those who lived before us, and condemning those before us.

    I am also reminded a statement from preachers when performing a marriage. The statement:

    ” If anyone has reason that these two should not be married, LET THEM SPEAK NOW OR FOREVER HOLD YOUR PEACE.”

    Forever hold your peace.

    Does anyone know what the telephone number is to 911?

    If you didn’t file a criminal complaint 40 years ago, FOREVER HOLD YOUR PEACE.

    I am also reminded of the BIBLE and how God set up a system of JUSTICE…

    Accusations:
    Witnesses

    Deuteronomy 19:15
    15 One witness is not enough to convict anyone accused of any crime or offense they may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.

    False Accusations:
    False Witnesses

    Exodus 20:16
    You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

    Deuteronomy 19:16-21 (Witnesses)
    If a malicious witness takes the stand to accuse someone of a crime, the two people involved in the dispute must stand in the presence of…the judges who are in office at the time. The judges must make a thorough investigation, and if the witness proves to be a liar, giving false testimony…, THEN DO TO THE FALSE WITNESS AS THAT WITNESS INTENDED TO DO TO THE OTHER PARTY…

    Jesus Before the Sanhedrin
    Matthew 26:57-60
    57 Those who had arrested Jesus took him to Caiaphas the high priest, where the teachers of the law and the elders had assembled. 58 But Peter followed him at a distance, right up to the courtyard of the high priest. He entered and sat down with the guards to see the outcome.

    59 The chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were looking for false evidence against Jesus so that they could put him to death.

    60 But they did not find any, though many false witnesses came forward…

    False accusers were MANY here.

    But…

    60 …Finally two came forward 61 and declared, “This fellow said, ‘I am able to destroy the temple of God and rebuild it in three days.’”

    62 Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, “Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?” 63 But Jesus remained silent.

    The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”

    64 “You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”[e]

    65 Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. 66 What do you think?”

    “He is worthy of death,” they answered.

    —————————

    So, if you are going to accuse, you damn well better be able to prove it by using step number 1, call your local law enforcement, 911, within the bounds of statute of limitations. Look in the phone book if you can’t remember the number to 911.

    If you don’t like the statute of limitations, petition the appropriate government officials needed to change the law.

    STOP MAKING EXCUSES THAT WOMEN ARE TOO SCARED TO COME FORWARD for whatever reasons..because when you do, you are guaranteeing that JUSTICE will never be done, and the perp can get away with it.

    If you want Justice, then DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, BY THE LAW.

    DON’T FILE A CIVIL COMPLAINT UNTIL AFTER THE OUTCOME OF A CRIMINAL COMPLAINT.

    The accusers need to prove their allegations in CRIMINAL COURT, or shut up!

    Ed Chapman

    Liked by 1 person

      • Thanks, Wondering, but just a reminder….I’m not an evangelical. I’m coming at this, really, from a LAW and ORDER standpoint than a religious one, although I referenced Bible references, because the Bible establishes the need for WITNESSES, a court, including a judge, an INVESTIGATION, and that there is such a thing as false witnesses, ALL OF WHICH are TRUE in our current JUSTICE SYSTEM.

        You are right…child molestation is indeed against the law. But, accusations is not what convicts someone of a crime. And, when you mention the law, then that means that the accuser has a RESPONSIBILITY to report the crime to PROPER authorities so that justice can be done.

        If alleged victim wants justice, the accusers need to play by the rules of LAW AND ORDER.

        For me, this is NOT an “evangelical” issue…it’s a law and order issue.

        In other words, a child molester is not a child molester unless the court so states, not because an accuser accuses. Since when has the court of public OPINION LEGALLY trump the court of law?

        Ed Chapman

        Like

      • Thanks Ed….you validated my post about evangelicals supporting Roy Moore. This is one of the best comments you made.

        As in “I Give Donald Trump (AND Roy Moore) Praise and Adoration — SCRIPTURE! SCRIPTURE! SCRIPTURE! SCRIPTURE! SCRIPTURE!”?

        P.S. I’ve had run-ins with Calvary Chapel bots. Every time I hear a barrage of Bible Bullets (especially just reciting Chapter-and-Verse “Zip Codes” to increase rate of fire), I think “Thoughtstoppers”.

        P.P.S. Regarding Joseph & Mary — don’t Muslims make a similar argument regarding Mohammed and Aisha?

        Liked by 1 person

    • I’m not in Alabama, so I won’t be voting for Roy Moore, but there’s two very real reasons I would not have voted for him before all this stuff about his sleazy behavior around high school girls came out.

      The first reason is his contempt for the First Amendment. He didn’t care that Christians who see the 10 Commandments plaque as an idol and non-Christians were appearing before him. He just didn’t care. He kept his plaque up and he kept praying. I’m believing that since he did his prayers before men, he has gotten his reward. He’s supposed to be a judge over all the people in Alabama, but it’s clear he only cared for his brand of Christian.

      The second reason, which expands on the first, is Moore’s utter contempt for the rule of law. I followed his shenanigans as he tried to opt Alabama out from the effects of the Supreme Court’s Obergefell decision. He showed contempt for the US Supreme Court, for the Constitution and for order, and he did it in the name of his religious belief that lesbians and gays should not get married.

      Finally, I would point out that voting is not like prosecuting a case. You can vote for someone for any reason at all. You don’t need “beyond a reasonable doubt” to decide you’re going to vote for Roy Moore. You could decide to vote for him because he wears a brand of shoes you like. But please, don’t give me this cant about “justice,” when that’s not a factor involved in choosing who to vote for.

      Like

      • Well, first of all, mirele, you have no clue as if any of the accusations against him are true, or false. You are only making an opinion, which we are all allowed. But opinion does not establish truth, or facts.

        But, if you are going to vote for someone because you like their shoes, then you are not a smart cookie to begin with. You are supposed to vote for someone who is going to REPRESENT YOU, not because of an unproven RUMOR.

        But you MUST acknowledge that some are advocating that you should not vote for Moore because he is a pedophile. So, people have already judged someone, when NO JUSTICE has proven it to be.

        I’m not buying into the local mall accusations either. There is no corroborating EVIDENCE.

        Hearsay, but no actual evidence. No proof.

        And if you have a problem with religious symbols in a COURT OF LAW, be reminded of the religious symbols in ALL of our government buildings, and be reminded that Thomas Jefferson attended Christian church services in the US House of Representatives, and sometimes it was held in the US Supreme Court…ya, the guy who said something about a separation of church and state VIOLATED his own policy…if indeed that was what his policy was.

        So, I don’t see any problems with religious symbols, which you call, idol, in a US Government Building. Just look at ALL government buildings in the Washington DC area, of which, I know that Wondering Eagle can confirm.

        Like

      • Chapmaned24: I DO have a problem with religious symbols in public buildings.

        My suggestion for you to understand how you might not like them so much is for you to go live in a state where you’re not a member of the dominant faith. May I suggest Utah, so you can get the total effect of having your state and local government completely overwhelmed by another religion? I mean, it’s the little things like how nothing can happen on Monday night because of Family Home Evening, how kids feel like they have to give up a class hour (which they could be using to take a class to further their education or get more credits for college) to go across the street to the LDS Seminary, or just simply the feeling that going into a coffee shop is somehow sinful. I live in a heavily Mormon area, and there are places that will serve you a “dirty soda” (that is, a Coke or other soft drink with flavoring in it), but you can’t get a glass of iced tea or a cup of coffee at those places, because the owners are catering to a specific audience that sees those two drinks as just as dangerous as hard liquor. Oh yeah, and the porn shoulders, can’t forget the porn shoulders, where girls in sleeveless shirts and dresses are criticized because their shoulders are showing.

        Yeah, you should live in a place where your religion is a definite minority, then you might understand why some of us like having a nice, secular government.

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  2. The whole support of Roy Moore fracas is just how American Evangelical Christianity handles abuse. This same thing plays out in churches all across the land, day in and day out. The difference is that the abused generally aren’t getting a national platform to air their grievances. Normally, the pastors cover up the abuse, tell the abused to forgive, hector them to keep their lips zipped, and all of this is done in the name of Jesus.

    We’re being told by Evangelical supporters of Roy Moore that we have to support Moore because Doug Jones is an evil Democrat who will bring great evils upon us. That’s simply not so; Kayla Moore and other Moore supporters are merely appealing to tribalism. It says volumes that Democrats could come out and denounce Al Franken for a groping/kissing episode when the story came out two days ago, but the GOP is just busy casting blame and doubt on the women who have come forward regarding Moore.

    Frankly, Evangelicalism needs to diminish if it’s not going to support and protect victims of abuse. The Roy Moore episode is yet another example.

    Liked by 1 person

  3. I think it’s time that we BEGIN AGAIN with teaching that VICTIMS, or those who know of a crime, has a responsibility in contacting POLICE when a crime is committed.

    Teach them NOW, at the earliest of age, in school, at home, and everywhere, that 911 is a GOOD phone number.

    STOP teaching them, especially in blogs, etc., that by reporting a crime, that they will never be believed.

    Start teaching children that they have a responsibility to TELL MOMMY, so that MOMMY can call the cops. STOP covering up crimes in church.

    NO ONE NEEDS PASTOR/ELDER permission to call 911.

    Go after “evangelicals”, if you will, that want CRIMES to be handled “IN-HOUSE”, hush, hush, in the church, so that crimes are covered up.

    Expose CRIMES to law enforcement. Stop giving excuses as to why crimes are not reported.

    REPORT THE CRIMES NOT THE THE WASHINGTON POST, BUT TO 911

    Like

    • Oh @#$%^&^%#$!!!!!

      I was sexually assaulted as a nine year old and had no clue I should have reported it to anyone. This was in 1969, when we simply did not have a concept of “good touch” versus “bad touch.” I *wouldn’t have known* to report it to someone because it was simply not part of the consciousness then. I also have high-functioning autism, and some of the things “normies” take for granted didn’t become clear to me until I was much older. Oh, and the other things suggested, like 911 and teaching people to go to the police, were not taught. I’m the same age as Kayla Moore and some of Roy Moore’s victims and I can tell you we just didn’t have the notions of how harmful child sexual abuse could be in 1977 or 1980.

      But seriously–you don’t *get* how someone’s power in the community can overwhelm people’s ability to report heinous crimes. Surely you’ve been paying attention over the last 15 years as stories of the hundreds and hundreds of Catholic priest molesters came out. And they were protected by the hierarchy, in part due to a belief that when you’re ordained a Catholic priest, you somehow become special and separate from the hoi polloi. The same thing applies among Evangelical Protestants. There are far too many churches that cover up child abuse and it doesn’t come out until years later. Wondering Eagle can instruct you on this.

      Moreover, attorneys in government practice are given great deference. I am an ex-attorney, haven’t practiced in over two decades, but I am still amazed at the deference I get. Last month I served on a civil trial jury in federal court l and you know, the judge didn’t ask “Do we have any technical problem management analysts in this jury pool?” during the voir dire. (This has been my job for over the last decade.) Nope, the judge specifically asked if there were any attorneys and yes, I raised my hand, because I had been an attorney in the past. (The other attorney in the jury pool asked me later if I’d kept up my license-NOPE.) Again, I ended up on the jury even though I’m an ex-attorney. And again, I was the jury foreperson. My point here is that in Etowah County, Alabama in the late 1970s, Roy Moore would have been given great deference. Yeah, he could have called up to the high school, said he was the local DA and asked to have a girl pulled out of a trig class. And they would have done it, because of the deference.

      But no, you’re not going to believe any of the eight women who have come forward. That’s your choice. However, I gave you two other reasons not to support Moore and you completely ignored them. Maybe you don’t care about the Constitution, the First Amendment or the rule of law, but I do. That’s probably because I went to law school and practiced law, but as I said, I’ve worked outside the legal profession for over two decades now. I just happen to know from my experience that Roy Moore was a horrible judge, he wasn’t impartial and it showed. Those things ALONE should disqualify him, but because his supporters also believe their brand of Christianity should rule the government, they’re going to vote for him.

      I’m going to state again that if Evangelical Christianity in America is going to support the pervs over the victims, it deserves to die a flaming death as completely unrepresentative of Jesus.

      Like

      • Mirele,

        I acknowledge what you say. No, I do not believe the women…why? Again, TIMING. They wait until Moore is running for Senate 40 years later, rather than when he was on the bench as a judge…as well as before the statute of limitations ran out.

        They had 40 years to say something. He worked in a place that was about LAW. NO ONE counseled him, no one disciplined him, no one censured him, no one wrote him up, no one filed a criminal complaint…but yet, it was widely known? I’m not buying it!!!!!!!

        BUT NOW…NOW teach children SO THAT the culture will change, that law enforcement is NOT THE BAD GUY.

        I acknowledge the wrong doings of church’s covering up crimes.

        I did a blog article regarding CHURCH DISCIPLINE, because I was sick and tired of church’s covering up crimes in church.

        There is ONLY one way to get justice, and God is not against justice. That one way for justice is by taking your issue to a judge, aka a court of law.

        If you want JUSTICE, THEN TEACH that justice can only come about when properly reported.

        For you, and others of THIS GENERATION, people have failed you, because no one is TEACHING.

        But now…now what is our excuse? We have an opportunity to teach…so we must teach. We must not give excuses any longer. What good has that done to JUSTICE?

        By the way…would Thomas Jefferson have supported gay marriage?

        Ed Chapman

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      • mirele,

        You had said:
        “I’m going to state again that if Evangelical Christianity in America is going to support the pervs over the victims, it deserves to die a flaming death as completely unrepresentative of Jesus.”

        I do not acknowledge any victims, so how can I support pervs over a victim? I do not acknowledge that Moore is a perv. I can’t victim blame, either, if I do not acknowledge a victim.

        Ed Chapman

        Like

      • Well, I believe the women, and since you can’t acknowledge what eight women have said about Roy Moore, and you don’t believe they’re victims, I have nothing more to say to you except this:

        Your attitude–“they’re not victims”–is why the Evangelical churches need to go up in (metaphorical) flames. I remember from the Sovereign Grace fiasco how very little children, barely more than toddlers, were made to apologize to their abusers. They weren’t seen as victims, and you’re doing the same thing here to these women. I find this disgusting. This is why people don’t come forward, because people like YOU doubt their very words and experience. And then you’re all about “they should have gone to the police,” not wanting to think about how the pastor or the district attorney has far more clout in the community than a teenage girl.

        The whole thing is disgusting and I will not engage with someone who thinks victims should have done more or need to prove their case TO YOU beyond a reasonable doubt.

        Liked by 1 person

      • mirele,

        Hopefully, you will LIKE what I have to say in the following, because it shows that I am NOT defending the church’s at all, regarding what you are speaking of. I am AGREEING WITH YOU. But I will not defend FALSE ACCUSERS. That is the part that you are neglecting to acknowledge, is that there is such a thing as false accusers.

        Not long ago, there was, what was it, Rolling Stone, or something like that, that had an article accusing MANY MANY PEOPLE of raping college women.

        None of that was true. None of it. Then, there was other famous college’s that were falsely accusing male students of rape. None of that was true, either.

        We must acknowledge that there is such a thing as false accusers, and that they have a MOTIVE that isn’t righteous at all.

        I believe that in Moore’s case, there are false accusers, and that they have a POLITICAL motive to get him out of the senate race.

        Regarding false accusers, the bible states to do to them as they wanted done to you.

        But…you want everyone to be believed that cries WOLF, without the use of COMMON SENSE!

        Common sense tells me that these women are liars, and have a political motive.

        This is NOT ABOUT EVANGELICAL STUFF. This is common sense LAW AND ORDER.

        This is NOT ABOUT CHRISTIANITY. It’s about the law.

        https://chapmaned24.wordpress.com/2017/05/30/discipline-in-church-is-it-biblical/

        Like

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  5. My own thought is the Roy Moore was and remains an unfortunate choice for leadership in any capacity. That he was EVER a district attorney was horrible. That he was a judge, even worse.

    Our Senate will not accept Moore.

    The playbook:
    Moore gets elected to the Senate; the Senate doesn’t accept him and he is booted out or resigns; Trump replaces Moore with Alabama’s former Senator Jefferson Beauregard Sessions, freeing up the headship of the Justice Dept.; whereupon Trump appoints his own crony to replace Sessions who will then FIRE MUELLER.

    That’s a prediction of worse-case scenario. Hopefully the decent people of Alabama won’t let Moore get to first base.

    Ed Chapman, you are a ‘true believer’ in the classic sense of the word, but in our democratic society, we need instead to have people who check their sources, and think for themselves. Fortunately for you, the people who HAVE done this allow for the ‘true believers’ among us to speak freely. But IF the ‘true believers’ who follow DT ever get to change our democratic society to what they value, it will not be a place where people can freely express themselves. DT has already spoken against a free press. The handwriting is on the wall. I hope for a better scene where we can all speak freely without contempt for one another and where it is OK to disagree civilly and respectfully. The Republican Party of DT and Moore are losing moral authority fast. I hope the two-party system will survive this mess.

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  6. So is the only way an accusation can be credible is if it’s made the instant the attack happens?

    It’s not credible if the accuser waits an hour? A day? A week?

    Let me tell you an admittedly extreme story about what happened when one family DID report.

    The family of a minister in MIssissippi had a severely disabled child. A member of their congregation offered to watch the child one day a week so the mom could have a break. They accepted. After all, it was a fellow church member, right?

    Eventually, the parents learned that the man was raping the child, and had threatened to kill him and his family if he told. And to underscore the threat, he put a loaded pistol on the kid’s pillow while he was performing the rape.

    The parents reported. The man was arrested and let out on bond.

    In the weeks that followed, there were some who asked why the parents couldn’t work it out with a fellow brother in Christ.

    In October, 2011, the man got into the minister’s house and murdered the minister’s wife and the boy he raped. He then killed himself.

    The kid didn’t tell because he was threatened. (He also had difficulty communicating due to his disability.) When he finally did tell, the parents reported and were criticized for it. And the man did exactly what he threatened to do. He killed his victim.

    (The minister has written a book about this event which will be published next year.)

    But Ed, in your book, since this abuse wasn’t reported the instant it happened, it can’t be credible.

    I truly hope that neither you nor anyone you love is ever the victim of this type of abuse.

    Liked by 1 person

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  8. Pingback: Carolyn McCulley Tweets on the Roy Moore Situation, When is Carolyn Going to Face C.J. Mahaney’s Sovereign Grace Ministries Sex Abuse Scandal? When will Jordan Kauflin Face Bob Kaulfin’s Enabling of Mahaney? Remember The Wondering Eagle is a #

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