How the Secularization of the United States will be Good for Atheists, Secular Humanists, the Christian Church and the Nation; Some Pushback to Tim Massaro

This is an article about why the secularization of the United States is going to be a good for the nation. The beneficiaries of secularization are atheists, secular humanists and non-theists; as well as the Christian church and the nation. This post also challenges and pushes back on an article that Tim Massaro wrote at a Christian blog. As a Christian I look forward to the secularization of the United States and believe it will do a lot of good on many fronts. 

“How dismal it is to see present day Americans yearning for the very orthodoxy that their country was founded to escape.”

Christopher Hitchens

“Those who would renegotiate the boundaries between church and state must therefore answer a difficult question: why would we trade a system that has served us so well for one that has served others so poorly?

Sandra Day O’Conner 

Classic scene from Lethal Weapon 4 just for fun. 

This is a post that I have been sitting on for a while which I have wanted to write about. Before I continue I want to draw your attention to a recent report done by two psychologists at the University of Kentucky which concludes that the rates of atheism is much higher than previously thought. Will Gervais and Maxine Najle have concluded that the percentage of atheism in the United States population can be as high at 26%. You can read their paper here. To read the details of the study I will direct you to this Huffington Post article. To read more about it you read commentary here, here and here

The United States is growing more secular. I believe that in time this nation will become more like Europe when it comes to the topic of religion. To understand the future of the United States I think we need to look at where France, Netherlands, and Great Britain are today. It will be an interesting time and I want to encourage you that as the United States grows more secular I believe there will be a lot of benefits to that secularization occurring. It will be helpful on three fronts of the United States – the atheist and secular humanist community, the Christian church, and the nation as a whole. Let me explain my thinking in this area. 

The atheist and secular humanist community will benefit greatly from the secularization of the United States. For many people it will mean that discrimination will go down as the percentage of religious people decline. I have written more about Christian discrimination of atheists in “The Issue of Christian Discrimination Against Atheists.”  More people will identify as “nones” and as time passes more people will come out of the closet in this area. I think that there are a lot more atheists around but that people are afraid to come forth given the culture we live in. The indicator that we are going more secular I believe is the changing demographics in the military. Just recently the Department of Defense recognized humanism. To read more I would encourage you to read “The United States Department of Defense Recognizes Humanism; How Long Before Humanist Chaplains can Finally Serve?” What occurs in the military tends to proceed society. For example the desegregation of military in 1948 happened before Brown vs Board of Education took place. Women having a greater role also proceeded what happened in society. So if history is correct than the same will develop in the military. So if I am an atheist or secular humanist then I would smile and look forward to that day. Your time is coming and it will be a good development that has long been in the making. 

Now for the Christian church I think the secularization of culture is going to be good overall. The death of “Christian America” is long overdue and the death of the “church” as many see it in the public square will be good. The loudest people who will object to the secularization of the United States are those who have a faith system that is more of a “civil religion.” That is their faith is tied to who owns Congress, the White House and who is up to being appointed to the Supreme Court. They are the loudest individuals who cry quite a bit and who fully engage in the culture wars. That crowd is going to have a hard time with the secularization of the United States and they are going to be more marginalized and have a minor role as time passes by. I firmly believe the secularization of the country can be the finest hour for the church especially as the part of the church that is engaged in politics disappears and dies. The church can then focus on being the church and loving, serving and being itself. The church will also discover a new found freedom when they cease being involved in politics. In addition the church will have to change its modus operandi, learn to embrace science, and think differently. Some will be able to change, while others will not be able to change. But I think this can be a period that can be good for the church in the long course of time. The wheat will be separated from the chaff in the end and I am looking forward to this happening and seeing it in my lifetime. 

Finally the nation as a whole will be better as society becomes more secularized. Science will be embraced more, and further research will be done against diseases, afflictions and problems as well. I believe that during this time we will more than likely find a vaccine for some diseases like HIV and others. But a society that embraces science will be good and better off in the end. I also think that government will be better off in the long run with the “civil religion” Christians losing their role. There will be a better functioning system that will have more of an even playing field. Arts, literature and more will thrive in new ways that will be discovered at that time. In short order I think the United States will have a brand new renaissance as it becomes more secularized. 

I write all that for an introduction to an article that appeared last March at the blog CCC Discover. They had a post about the secularization of the United States that I read with interest. The article is called “4 Reasons You Should Care about Secularization” and it is written by Timothy W. Massaro. Tim has written for the White Horse Inn and has a brief biography published at CCC Discover, where he has published 85 articles. I have a lot to say about Tim’s article and my comments below will be in red


 

While America founded its political and institutional culture around the separation of church and state, it continues to be one of the most religious countries in the West. Today, that religious core seems to be changing. This trend is consistent in most modernized societies. We describe this process as “secularization.”

Secularization occurs when a culture moves from being religious to nonreligious. As societies modernize, they become less religious. This is not to be confused with “secularism,” which is an ideology. Secularization is a very important process in our culture that we should seek to understand. Here are four aspects of secularization you need to know:

1. Secularization doesn’t mean spirituality disappears.

Everyone today has heard of people being “spiritual but not religious.” The spiritual category seems to be on the rise, while religion is on the decline. How does this jive with secularization? Well, secularization does not mean that spirituality will disappear, but rather that spirituality and religion will take on a more subjective role that is relegated to personal choice. Faith itself will be less of a public institution or force upon daily decisions.

One characteristic of secularization is treating our daily spirituality like a buffet line, picking and choosing what feels right. This change can be seen even with those who believe in Christ. Religion is becoming privatized socially and practically. Faith is becoming more experiential without any external, objective basis. Secularization means that religion will fade from the public square while also changing those traditional religions to meet public demands.

One of the things I find really fascinating is the number of conversations I have had in person, through email or more with people are identify as atheist, secular humanist, “none” or more. I had a good conversation with a pan-theist recently which was quite interesting as well. I keep learning that there is much to learn.And as time passes by I realize how little I know. But as I keep learning there are a number of people who don’t practice faith who can be spiritual in many forms. Some deeply enjoy religious discussion or exploring the problems of religion. So spirituality becomes what a person wants to make of it in their own unique way, and you know that is fine for many people. 

One point that I would like to push back on is the concept of a “buffet line.” If Tim Massaro is honest then he can also say that many Christian traditions operate like a “buffet line” in how they function. After all you have Calvinist, and Non-Calvinist. You have theological movements who have different views on end times theology. You have churches that have different views on different theology topics. And I will also say that one of this issues that Tim and the Christian church needs to be honest about is how morality is defined. Morality I would suggest is grounded more in the nation’s culture at the time then scripture. Today the topic is gay marriage, but let us stop and remember how slavery was once viewed in the United States before the Civil War. You had two sides of the church that used scripture to justify their positions. Another example is that of inter-racial dating and marriage. In the 1960’s in Virginia that was viewed as sin. The “morality” of that topic came from cultural perspectives and less from scripture. This is an issue that many Christians need to discuss and admit has happened. I am not trying to be difficult instead I am trying to be honest. 

 

2. Secularization means that religion no longer makes sense.

With secularization beliefs and practices once considered normal are now considered embarrassing or even dangerous. It is increasingly difficult to mentor young people in the faith, since it doesn’t make sense to them. The social and moral conditions that made the faith plausible for so many generations have shifted and slowly eroded. The “ecosystem” for faith is radically different from previous generations. What is good, true, and beautiful is viewed differently today. For instance, many millennials believe it is unthinkable that one can love one’s neighbor and yet stand for traditional marriage.

The traditional, historic Christian faith itself has been challenged because the social conditions of life have been radically altered. When religion becomes socially incoherent, children no longer accept their family’s faith because it fails to make sense of their reality. What feels real to them determines reality. Religion then fails to make public, objective claims upon us, and religion becomes increasingly privatized. How does this secularization of faith happen?

I have to push back here. If parents can’t raise their children in a particular religious tradition then I think the faith of Tim Massaro is way too shallow. As for the moral conditions please reference what I wrote above about how morals have always been subject to change and are defined in society more so than the Christian faith. In reading this point from Tim I think this reveals someone who is insecure at best. His comments are alarmist especially when it comes to traditional marriage. The other point I would suggest is that Tim is viewing the “historic Christian faith” through the lens of someone living in the comfort of the United States. If you were to run this paragraph past Christians who have seen the kind of change that is written about in the context of other issues, what would they say? What would Christians in India, Pakistan,  Lebanon, China, Russia, all say? I look at this and wonder how Tim Massaro would survive in the days of Rome as a Christian? 

 

3. Secularization removes God from our social habits and customs.

Our culture is convinced that a relationship to God is an immediate experience that no one can determine, except us. This creed has had corrosive effects on our faith. When God is not part of our daily patterns, rituals, and liturgies, he practically doesn’t exist. Children growing up in these environments never really have a faith to hold onto because nothing ever makes a demand of them.

Through social media, digital technology, and modernization of society, we easily go through life without thinking about God or some higher being. Our convenient lifestyles simply do not need God. That is what is unique about our day—we live in a world that gives the illusion that people can get on in life without God.

We live as if God and religion have no real public claim on our lives. We live as if God is dead. We do so mainly because our social world, our habits, and character are being formed and shaped by practices that are no longer tied to the belief that communion with God is the goal of human existence. Secularization happens, then, not just by people leaving religion or the church, but by assimilating the culture’s vision of life and adopting its methods. Religion is transformed into a private, subjective experience. The most important point to remember is that God uses means. He uses material reality to commune with us. When those realities are no longer present, their power over our hearts is weakened. Religion becomes unimaginable.

This part by Tim Massaro is just awful. I mean man this is just awful. In reading Tim’s comments about social media and the internet, well I remember when many evangelicals were all giddy about social media and the internet as they could hasten the coming of the Lord in evangelizing the world. That was until people started writing about problems and many different religious and non-religious websites started popping up. Plus I will just say this, Tim if you believe in God just do so, and say so. Why do you need someone else’s affirmation? But remember that life for many people can and does go on without God. Do people need God to do their job, or pick up their kids from school or more? No they do not. Here is another aspect that I want to challenge Tim on…why does the practice of the Christian faith need to be so public and open to the world? Didn’t Jesus command people to not pray in public but do so in private? Does Tim Massaro have a problem with the scriptures? 

 

4. Secularization must be opposed by the church and family.

While claiming to be religiously neutral, secular society always makes claims about what ultimately matters in life. Secular societies always enforce a certain vision or dream of happiness. People continually reach out to the good life society promises. Cultures have certain practices and creeds that determine what is publicly acceptable and forms all of us in our imaginations. For most people identity, beliefs, and ethics are determined by the larger culture. Churches and families need to discern that vision of life to shape us according to God’s grace.

Our worship, liturgies, churches, and families must graciously point to the goodness of God, his beauty, and truth for which we were made. Worship should point with wonder to what God has done in the world, so we can see his good providence and grace in our daily lives.

We must ask, therefore, whether our practices are assimilations of the wider culture, or if they are forming us according to the gospel of Christ. If worship is little more than baptized methods from the culture, it will do little to help revitalize and strengthen belief in a transcendent God who meets us in Christ. Young people must have the worship practices and education that show God at work in their daily lives to counter this process of secularization. We use these tools, trusting God to work as he has promised, knowing he has overcome this present evil age.

When I read this article, but especially this last section I think Tim is going to fall into the category of those who are going to struggle to adjust as the country becomes more secular. The way he looks at faith is very much in the open and celebrated publicly. That I think is in sharp contrast to the message of the Bible. The more the church tries to be so public about its faith the more ugly it can become. The fact of the matter is that if Tim believes in God than whatever happens he should be comfortable and at peace regardless of what happens. His post  is alarmist and is part of the crowd that is crying in disbelief. In my view I welcome the secularization of the United States. Its going to be a good thing for the country and I will sharply disagree with Tim, and say that it will be good for the church. This is my take and you are free to agree or disagree. Either way lets have this important discussion on this topic. Love you guys! 

10 thoughts on “How the Secularization of the United States will be Good for Atheists, Secular Humanists, the Christian Church and the Nation; Some Pushback to Tim Massaro

    • Ed, how did the Christian faith thrive in Rome then? Christianity was a minority. Christians didn’t go to Rome to change the Roman Empire through the political system. They went there to speak about someone who suffered, died and was resurrected. Look at how the Christian faith thrived Ed? I am not trying to anger or irritate you, instead I am just sharing what I believe to be the case.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Thrive? First of all, we are not in Rome. Second of all, I am not Catholic. Third of all, I do not agree with the influence of Augustine. Fourth of all, the ONE faith that Christianity comes from, i.e. Judaism, the Jews were the most hated because they REFUSED to get ROMANIZED, so to speak.

        Christianity is an extension of Judaism, not a replacement of.

        You have a twisted version of this nations founding that it blows my mind. Did you know that the federal government was involved in EVANGELIZING the Indians? Oh, I guess I need to be politically correct, huh? The Native Americans. By the way, they live on Indian Reservations, not Native American Reservations.

        I’ve mentioned this before, and I will again:
        We all know that both Prayer and Bibles were REMOVED from our schools, but no one wishes to discuss when they were brought in the schools to begin with, and no one ever discusses the WHY they were there to begin with. All they want to talk about is when they were removed.

        E Pluribis Unum means OUT OF MANY, ONE.

        Today, we live in “OUT OF ONE, MANY”.

        Things have become TWISTED, and you are part of that problem, dude. Really!

        Ed

        Liked by 1 person

      • Ed I am speaking of the Christian church in early Rome. I am not referring to the Catholic Church. Paul to my knowledge wasn’t Catholic. Catholics believe that Peter was the first Pope. Paul just went to Rome to preach the Gospel, that is it. He didn’t try and change the political system. He didn’t go there to change law. He went there to just be the church. Do you see what I am saying?

        Liked by 1 person

      • And I am not discussing Rome.

        Let me show you something:

        Thomas Jefferson was opposed to the DISTORTION of Christianity, not the genuine Chrisitanity. So was Ben Franklin, too. I have more quotes of both for you here:

        On April 21, 1803, Jefferson wrote this to Dr. Benjamin Rush (also a signer of the Declaration of
        Independence):

        My views…are the result of a life of inquiry and reflection, and very different from the
        anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity
        I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the
        only sense in which He wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to
        all others…

        President Thomas Jefferson extended three times a 1787 act of Congress in which special lands
        were designated …

        … for the sole use of Christian Indians and the Moravian Brethren missionaries for civilizing
        the Indians and promoting Christianity.

        Ben Franklin

        Here’s what Franklin wrote in a letter dated March 1778 to the Ministry of France:

        Whoever shall introduce into public affairs the principals of primitive Christianity will change
        the face of the world.

        In addition, Franklin wrote:

        A Bible and a newspaper in every house, a good school in every district — all studied and
        appreciated as they merit — are the principal support of virtue, morality, and civil liberty.

        In a pamphlet titled Information to Those Who Would Remove to America,
        written for Europeans who were considering coming to America, Franklin made these observations:

        Hence bad examples to youth are more rare in America, which must be a comfortable
        consideration to parents. To this may be truly added, that serious religion, under its various denominations, is
        not only tolerated, but respected and practiced.

        Atheism is unknown there; infidelity rare and secret; so that persons may live to a great age in
        that country without having their piety shocked by meeting with either an Atheist or an Infidel.

        And the Divine Being seems to have manifested his approbation of the mutual forbearance
        and kindness with which the different sects treat each other; by the remarkable prosperity with which
        he has been pleased to favor the whole country.

        On June 28, 1787, the Constitutional Convention was deadlocked and embroiled in bitter controversy.
        Benjamin Franklin rose and made the following plea to the delegates:

        In the beginning of the Contest with Great Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had
        daily prayer in this room for the Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were
        graciously answered. All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of
        a superintending providence in our favor.

        To that kind providence we owe this happy opportunity of consulting in peace on the means of
        establishing our future national felicity. And have we now forgotten that powerful Friend? Or do
        we imagine we no longer need His assistance?

        I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth
        — that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His
        notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?

        We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings, that ‘except the Lord build the House, they labor
        in vain that build it.’ I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without His concurring aid we
        shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel: We shall be divided by
        our partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a
        reproach and bye word down to future ages …

        I therefore beg leave to move — that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and
        its blessing on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to
        business, and that one or more of the clergy of this city be requested to officiate in that service.

        End…As you will note in the above quotes of Ben Franklin, the word RELIGION was in regards to differing Christian denominations…NOT A GENERIC WORD USED FOR ALL RELIGIONS AS WE USE THE WORD TODAY, GENERICALLY. Also, as you should note by the quotes of Ben Franklin above…THERE ARE NO ATHEISTS IN AMERICA AT THAT TIME. NONE.

        ———————-

        The treaty of Tripoli states that we are WERE NOT a Christian Nation.

        HOWEVER, we were indeed a NATION OF CHRISTIANS.

        NO ATHEISTS, Ben Franklin said. NONE.

        Thomas Jefferson

        3rd U.S. President, Drafter and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

        “God
        who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be
        thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction
        in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God?
        That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble
        for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot
        sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of
        situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by
        Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take
        side with us in that event.”
        –Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.

        “I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ.”
        –The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.

        John Hancock

        1st Signer of the Declaration of Independence

        “Resistance
        to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual.
        … Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on
        God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to
        take from us.”
        –History of the United States of America, Vol. II, p. 229.

        George Washington

        In his first general order to his troops, General George
        Washington called on …

        Every officer and man…to live, and act, as becomes a Christian Soldier defending the dearest
        rights and liberties of his country.

        On May 14, 1787, George Washington warned the delegates to the Constitutional Convention:

        If to please the people, we offer what we ourselves disapprove, how can we afterward defend
        our work? Let us raise a standard to which the wise and the honest can repair; the event is in the Hand
        of God!

        President George Washington, on April 30, 1789, delivered his famous Inaugural Address to both
        Houses of Congress. He had just taken the oath of office on the balcony of Federal Hall in New York City, with
        his hand upon a Bible opened to Deuteronomy, Chapter 28:

        Such being the impressions under which I have, in obedience to the public summons, repaired to
        the present station, it would be peculiarly improper to omit, in this first official act, my fervent
        supplications to that Almighty Being who rules over the universe, who presides in the councils of nations
        and whose providential aides can supply every human defect; that His benediction may consecrate to
        the liberties and happiness of the people of the United States a government instituted by themselves
        for these essential purposes; and may enable every instrument employed in its administration to
        execute with success, the functions allotted to his charge.

        In tendering this homage to the Great Author of every public and private good, I assure myself that
        it expresses your sentiments not less than my own; nor those of my fellow citizens at large, less
        than either.

        No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the Invisible Hand which conducts the affairs
        of men more than the people of the United States. Every step by which they have advanced to the
        character of an independent nation seems to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency.

        And in the important revolution just accomplished, in the system of their United government,
        the tranquil deliberations and voluntary consent of so many distinct communities, from which the
        event has resulted, can not be compared with the means by which most governments have been
        established, without some return of pious gratitude, along with an humble anticipation of the future
        blessings which the past seem to presage …

        We ought to be no less persuaded that the propitious smiles of Heaven can never be expected on
        a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right which Heaven itself has ordained;
        and since the preservation of the sacred fire of liberty and the destiny of the republican model of
        government are justly considered as deeply, perhaps finally, staked on the experiment…

        ———————–

        General George
        Washington called on …

        Every officer and man…to live, and act, as becomes a Christian Soldier defending the dearest
        rights and liberties of his country.

        On May 14, 1787, George Washington warned the delegates to the Constitutional Convention:

        If to please the people, we offer what we ourselves disapprove, how can we afterward defend
        our work? Let us raise a standard to which the wise and the honest can repair; the event is in the Hand
        of God!

        President George Washington, on April 30, 1789, delivered his famous Inaugural Address to both
        Houses of Congress. He had just taken the oath of office on the balcony of Federal Hall in New York City, with
        his hand upon a Bible opened to Deuteronomy, Chapter 28:

        Thomas Jefferson:
        God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when
        we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are
        of the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my
        country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever.

        “I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ.”
        –The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.

        Benjamin Franklin

        Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Unites States Constitution

        “Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.

        “That
        the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his
        other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated
        with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I
        take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard
        them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.

        “As to Jesus of
        Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system
        of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the
        world ever saw, or is likely to see;

        “But I apprehend it has
        received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the
        present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it
        is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and
        think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an
        opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble. I see no harm,
        however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequence,
        as probably it has, of making his doctrines more respected and more
        observed; especially as I do not perceive, that the Supreme takes it
        amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in his government of the world
        with any peculiar marks of his displeasure.”
        –Benjamin Franklin wrote this in a letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University on March 9, 1790.

        Ben Franklin was a PRESBYTERIAN, who did not like going to church because he had issues with the preacher. The issue? His preacher was GREAT at telling people how to be BETTER CHURCH GOERS, but was NOT teaching people how to be BETTER CITIZENS, and that pissed Ben off. So, he stopped going to church.

        He did NOT believe in the deity of Jesus. Why? Because the Church of England taught that Jesus was God. And MANY people of that time did not TRUST the Church of England. But, Ben did not think that God would punish those who did not believe that Jesus was not God.

        But he did believe in the Bible’s God, and he quoted from it from time to time.

        And Ben Franklin was one of those who said that a Bible in schools.

        So There…LALALALALALALALA

        Ding Ding.

        FORGET ROME. Welcome to America. If you want Rome, I will buy your plane ticket and help you fill out your Visa Applications to change allegiance from America, to Rome. Oh, you have no allegiance to America. I forgot.

        Ed

        Like

  1. Ugh! This article – so much fear mongering!

    Tim said “It is increasingly difficult to mentor young people in the faith, since it doesn’t make sense to them.”
    Then I would suggest that the problem might be with Tim’s faith, rather than with the children. And I don’t see how shoving more religion into the public square will somehow make it more relevant to young people. If he can’t explain his religion to a child in a way that makes sense, maybe what he needs is self-reflection, not complaints about popular culture.

    Tim said “Our culture is convinced that a relationship to God is an immediate experience that no one can determine, except us. This creed has had corrosive effects on our faith.”

    No, it means that everyone can pursue what they perceive as the correct religion (or lack of it) free from the interference of government. If you give the government the power to shove religion into public life, then you have given them the power to shove somebody else’s religion into public life. Tim’s very happy to have religion imposed on people by their culture, as long as it’s his religion. Eagle, I agree with you, if his faith cannot endure without being pushed on people by the government and by popular culture, then he’s got a pretty weak faith.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Ed, what does God love more. People who worship him in spirit and truth and who worship him freely because they want to? Or people who worship God because a person in a place of government says so. Our worship should be spontaneous and because we want to. Forced worship kind of defeats the point. That’s where the “Court Evangelicals” go awry in my opinion. Its like school prayer in schools. No one has banned school prayer. A child can say a 15 second prayer before her test starts and still pray. You can’t have organized school prayer led by a teacher. But thanks for your thoughts Ed.

      Like

      • I don’t think it matters, because IF IT MATTERS, then it isn’t worshiping God in spirit and truth.

        It only matters to people like you!!

        In church, you have ORGANIZED prayer every time that preacher states, bow your heads and lets pray.

        Therefore, what does it matter if prayer is led by a preacher or teacher? OUR FOUNDING FATHERS had no problem with it. Remember there was ONCE UPON A TIME that prayer was in school.

        WHO PUT IT THERE? AND WHY?

        Oh, by the way, WHAT DOES GOD, your creator, think about your way of thinking?

        Isn’t he a jealous God that wants people to worship him, or does he LIKE that you promote things that he would disapprove of?

        Would God chastise you for your live and let live attitude, and want you to REPENT and toGO YE AND MAKE DISCIPLES OF ALL NATIONS, TEACHING THEM…

        Like

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