A brief post before Community Evangelical Free’s Spring Congregational meeting on June 12, 2017. There they are supposed to vote on separation from the EFCA. This addresses some of the issues that are being told by the CEFC leadership. Plus this also gives the EFCA’s view on the situation and how the leadership of Steve Estes and the Stoltszufs have rebuffed and rejected the EFCA’s wishes and counsel.
“O, what a tangled web we weave; When first we practice to deceive!”
Sir Walter Scott
“False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil.”
Plato
The Lord detests lying lips, but he delights in people who are trustworthy.
Proverbs 12:22 NIV
***Made a couple of quick edits to the end times theology section 6-10-17 David Bonner ***
I just want to get a quick post up about an ongoing situation regarding Steve Estes Community Evangelical Free Church in Elverson, Pennsylvania. Steve Estes’ church as you know practiced church discipline on an alleged sexual assault victim. They did it to protect the Senior Pastor’s son (Brock Estes) job at the Berks County Jail. This church has been filled with conflict and issues for the past two years. You can read the latest with Community Evangelical Free in “Community Evangelical Free Church Wants to Separate from the Evangelical Free Church of America.” The church under the leadership of Steve Estes brought its problems unto itself. In this update I just want to explain what the EFCA has been trying to do with Community Evangelical Free, and what Steve Estes and the Stoltzfus are refusing to do.
The EFCA Issues with CEFC are Not Over End Times Theology Issues; The EFCA has Many Issues with CEFC
Its my understanding that Steve Estes church is telling the congregation that one of the reasons why they need to leave the EFCA is due to a disagreement over end times theology issues. Quite simply that is not true. End times theology issues are a secondary issue in the EFCA denomination. The EFCA has been moderate with their end times theology issues and quite flexible. That is one of the good things about the EFCA. Actually in a little over a week the EFCA is going to gather at a national theology conference in Austin, Texas. There they are planning to vote on a resolution to amend its statement of faith. The upcoming change has many Neo-Calvinists happy as it plays down the pre-millennial theological return of the Lord. I have actually heard from a couple of Neo-Calvinist pastors personally who welcome this change. You can read the proposed resolution right here. The upcoming change to the EFCA statement of faith will be more in line with Steve Estes’s theology. So Community Evangelical Free can’t state that there is a disagreement over end times theology. That is categorically false. Likewise the EFCA is concerned with how this church is ruled and governed. The EFCA has decided that this is an elder ruled church and not an elder led church, which is what the EFCA as a movement is.
What the EFCA Wanted Steve Estes and the Community Leadership to do
The EFCA is deeply troubled by the leadership of Community Evangelical Free. In addition the EFCA is frustrated and in regular repeated letters to the leadership have documented and communicated their displeasure. As I wrote about last time the EFCA found Community Evangelical Free Church in error and they determined that the excommunication of Hurit was both uncalled and unjust. The EFCA wanted Steve Estes and the leadership to retract the excommunication and repent. Its my understanding that while the leadership personally delivered a letter to the home of Hurit’s family saying she was no longer under church discipline; the church refused to say that they were wrong. The EFCA is bothered and troubled that Steve Estes church will not repent for how they handled the situation. In addition the EFCA has also required that Community Evangelical Free go back to those who were wronged and who left this church and make things right with them. As of today I am going to make an educated guess and say that at least 150 people have left Steve Estes church. The EFCA wanted Steve Estes church to approach former members and say that they were wrong and make amends. As of today Steve Estes and the Stoltzfus leadership refuse to do this.
The EFCA under the leadership of Eastern District Superintendent Eddie Cole and Greg Strand in Minneapolis have worked hard with this church. They have tried to resolve this situation. The problem is that Steve Estes and the Stoltzfus leadership have rebuffed and rejected all their efforts to engage. The EFCA even went so far as to request to speak before the congregation of Community Evangelical Free in Elverson, and the church leadership strongly refused their request. Time and time again every time the EFCA has engaged with this church CEFC refused to co-operate or do the right thing.
The Spring Congregational Meeting on June 12, 2017
This Monday June 12 2017 Community is having their annual Congregational meeting. Its my understanding that this church is going to vote on leaving the EFCA. Please correct me if I am mistaken, but I believe 65% of the membership has to vote in the affirmative to separate from the EFCA. To reach that goal the church leadership has been engaging in a propaganda campaign and aggressively misleading its congregation. Its also my understanding that there are many members who do not want to leave the EFCA. The members of Community Evangelical Free need to know that the church leadership is misleading and lying to its church members in an effort to try and reach that goal. I would encourage all members of Community to reach out to the EFCA for the facts in the situation. You will find a very well run Eastern District Office under Eddie Cole who is very professional. The Eastern District and the EFCA is quite fortunate to have him in a position of leadership. The staff of the Eastern District will tell Community Evangelical Free members a different story. I am calling on the members of Community to reach out and run the information they are being told against the EFCA. The phone number for the Eastern District Office is 610-395-9034. You can also email the office at office@edaefca.org.
Before Monday evening’s meeting members of CEFC are free to leave questions below and I am sure people will engage and respond over the weekend and Monday. Its imperative for members of Community to know that they are being deceived by the leadership of Steve Estes and the Stoltzfus clan. And before voting they need to know all the facts. If the church knew the facts they would vote down any desire to leave the EFCA. By the way one other quick note…On Sunday June 11th, there is a picnic and baptism service after the second service if anyone wants to attend.
Wondering Eagle 
Eagle,
I decided to give EFCA a call a while ago. When I did I was told that the End Times differences are SECONDARY issues and that the MAIN issues the association has with CEFC leadership are that:
-They have refused to repent.
-They have refused to go back to those they have wronged and who have left and to make things right with them.
-And they have refused to work with EFCA.
Pretty much in line with all you just posted above.
Do regular attenders and members know this? Or is this new information to them?
Are these 3 things really ok with the people in the church?
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One thing that deeply troubles me is the efforts that the CEFC leadership is going to, in an attempt to mislead the congregation into voting Yes to break away from the EFCA. It is profoundly disturbing. Its bullying in my opinion..the Stoltzfus and Steve Estes leadership are bullying the congregation. Its tantamount to putting a gun to someone’s head and saying, “vote to leave.” I have to say that in this situation I am deeply bothered by the constant and consistent bad decisions that CEFC makes. This church is profoundly corrupt and as time goes on it appears to be getting worse.
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House Stoltzfus is taking a page from House Tudor, specifically Henry VIII:
If the church authorities tell you “No”, break away your own personal church whose Loyal Bannerman-Pastor will tell you “YES YES YES”.
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BTW..one thing I would ask the members of CEFC Elverson to do. Call the Eastern District Office of the EFCA and ask them for their take on the situation. Take the information that Steve Estes and the Stoltzfus leadership has given you and ask the EFCA, “Is this true? Is one of the reasons why the EFCA wants to remove us is over end times theology issues?” Or “Does the EFCA want to church leadership to repent?” Another question is “What concerns does the EFCA have with this church?” Ask the EFCA those questions, and more and you will get what I have written above. When in doubt always ask, don’t let yourself or your thinking to another person. Don’t take my word either…ask the EFCA if the denomination wants to remove Community Evangelical Free over a number of different issues?
Comment Edited 6-10-17
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I am not sure if your understanding of how the EFCA functions and what “autonomous” means is a deliberate attempt to mislead or confuse, but you would be wise to go back to Megs48’s response to one of your postings dated May 22, 2017 (or you could check out the EFCA website). Megs48 clearly states: “Brother Hamel may be President of the E.V. Free denomination but he has ABSOLUTELY NO VOTE at any E.V. Free Church other than his own. He is free to call up the pastor of any specific E.V. Free Church and tell him what he thinks but the Pastor and his leadership team are not obliged to act accordingly.
Each E.V. Free Church is autonomous.”
Likewise, the Free Church in Elverson is autonomous. It does not answer to the EFCA.
Let me try to explain as clearly and simply as I can:
1. Nine years ago, leaving the EFCA was put on the 10 year vision statement.
2. Recently, a committee of at-large members was formed to research leaving the EFCA.
3. Elders met with small groups and individuals to answer questions regarding the EFCA.
4. A former pastor (from over 30 years ago) spoke in worship service of why our church is elder-led and not congregation-led. His sermon is available on the church website.
5. Questions were fielded from the congregation during both Sunday school sessions last Sunday AND Sunday evening.
6. Neither pastor Estes nor any of the “Stoltszufs” brothers were part of the question and answer times unless pressed to answer a question (Estes answered at most 2 questions).
7. If the church remains in the EFCA, it must change its church government/structure and its statement of faith.
8. If the church leaves the EFCA it will change its name.
9. If any member has any questions or concerns they may contact any elder or anyone on the committee (members at large).
It doesn’t take a theologian to realize that CEFC is not a good fit with the EFCA. I think that we can all agree that the EFCA holds different views on church discipline and church leadership. When a person goes through the CEFC membership classes, there is an entire evening devoted to church discipline. The fact that the church is elder-led is also discussed. I was not blindsided or snookered into signing up to be a member.
Your criticism in the past seemed to be that the elders were working secretly without involving the congregation in any decision making. Now the elders take great pains to get input and to answer questions and you proclaim that it is just for propaganda purposes. You can’t have it both ways. In addition, the “end times” issues have been discussed several times. The EFCA is voting on it at the end of the year. IF it passes, it will take 2 years to change and it has not passed in the past.
Although I am not on staff and I am not an elder at the Free Church, I have been the benefactor of listening to the explanations first hand (in a group and one on one) on why the elders are recommending that we leave the EFC. Since I heard them first hand, I do not have to rely on a blogger over 125 miles away or disgruntled former members who have left the church to interpret the explanations for me. I am not interested in being bullied by you or by any of your fan base.
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@XJN, I’m very interested in what your take is on what the leadership of CEFC did to Hurit, Mr. Estes’ daughter-in-law. Please do share your thoughts on that. I believe it would go a long way in helping the rest of the world to understand what went down from CEFC’s perspective. Eagle has provided you with an open forum to explain this from the CEFC side. You should avail yourself of it.
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It also seems a bit perverse, BTW, that CEFC would spend an entire evening devoted to “church discipline” in its membership classes. How bizarre. What normal church does that? Should not the focus be on Jesus & on the bible?
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You have to remember Ejj the church discipline is selective and no one from the Stoltzfus or Estes family will ever face discipline. Its a means to control people in the pews. Brock never faced church discipline, and he never will.
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Wasn’t Hurit a family member via matrimony? She received “discipline”. Oh wait… she was being disciplined for *leaving* the family. ahem… never mind…
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Methinks that any church that puts leaving the EFCA on its “10 year vision statement” that then accepts a sizable loan from the EFCA, is clearly not to be trusted, and is talking out of both sides of its mouth.
@XJN, care to explain this? You have a nice forum here to address this. Why not do so?
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XJN thanks for explaining all that. I think you and the others are right that you do not fit in well with the EFCA. I do believe God will use even this to bring further discipline to you all. And a whopping financial discipline is sure to be just the tip of the iceberg. Its just a very convenient time for the leaders to highlight all of this to your congregation when they know how irritated EFCA is with them for continuing on the same path of unrepentance and doing whatever they want to do. They ( and you) present it in such a civil way. Often that is how Satan get people to follow him too.
And by the way. EFCA seems to be ok with either elder-led OR congregation-led. It is Elder-RULED that they find unacceptable. Those that like being ruled by men should stay in this church. Those that are willing to submit to correction and change their course of action when presented by men and women in the body of Christ should leave. This is not what these “Godly” men have done. And if I hear that stupid phrase applied to these controlling people one more time i think i will vomit.
***Edited the comment in request of the author***
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“And a whopping financial discipline is sure to be just the tip of the iceberg.” Not sure what you mean by that “Verum.” Also, now the critique is that the elders (and me) are presenting it in a civil way? So now it’s a darn if we do and darn if we don’t situation.
Haters will be haters.
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Civil is good. My point was not to say that civil was bad but that it doesn’t always equate to Godly motives. My educated guess is that even though you may not currently be an elder, you either have been one yourself at one time, are related to someone who is , or will be in the future.
I also apologize for my strong “vomit” word. But the Bible equates “Godly” behavior with humility. This is not what I have seen coming from this leadership and I am relieved to know that the EFCA agrees.
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XJN…I thank you for your comments. I love it when people of differing opinions comment because it shows the mindset of CEFC – Elverson. I also have to say this…I believe that this is Diane Stoltzfus (Merle Stoltzfus wife) commenting. The reason why I say that is because I believe you are attached to the CEFC leadership. I met Verna Estes. Verna is a gem, and has a heart of gold. I feel sorry for Verna as she is stuck between what Brock has done and what Steve has done. Verna is in a difficult spot, but I don’t believe Verna means ill will or harm. I believe Verna would open up her home for me if I needed help. When I went to CEFC in early 2016 and sat next to her warmth flowed form her heart. So I feel sorry that she is caught in this. I think this is you Diane because you are known for being snarky. But I also noticed that you are using a proxy server or something similar as you are throwing off your IP address. Your first IP address came from Jeddah, Saudi Arabia and your next IP address came from Prague, Czech Republic. So I have one request. Can you post in your real name Diane and not hide behind an anonymous one? You know in 2016 I drove up to Elverson to meet your husband Merle, Dave and Steve and you guys fled! You left Al Kimball in your place. You even had John Sletta preach in Steve’s place!
Diane CEFC is a family business for the Stoltzfus. Its really an extension of Stoltzfus Enterprises. When I think of the efforts CEFC went to get people on board in excommunicating an alleged sexual assault victim, I can only imagine what is being done to the congregation now to get them to separate from the EFCA. As I understand it to get the leadership on board of excommunicating and disciplining an alleged sexual assault victim you guys had late night Elder meetings with Steve Estes and Al Kimbill that lasted until 4:00 in the morning. Al was incensed and yelled at Steve “But Brock had a gun!” Quite an operation you guys have going on there Diane, if that is you, and yes I believe that it is.
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So Efree had plans of exiting efca I believe that to be true.So according to xjn they wanted to leave efca. IS IT NOT TRUE THEY GOT MONEY FOR NEW BUILDING FROM Efca.If I had long term plans of exiting some organization I would not be loaning money from that organization.I bet know that the empire of dirt is built they are trying to secure a loan elsewhere.Efca a usefull tool until not needed anymore.
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Agree with “Searching” in that one would question the reasoning for borrowing money from EFCA if you were planning on breaking away from them! It seems somewhat contradictory. To XJN… You perceive the blogger to be a bully. It appears the CEFC leaders did a lot of bullying! Listen and look in the eyes of the wounded and shunned and you will see what bullying looks like!
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The loan is the million dollar question for me. What has become of it? I have heard that in one instance in a EFCA district the EFCA practiced loan forgiveness. But in this case I wonder….if CEFC breaks away there has to be some requirement that they satisfy the demands of the loan. If anyone knows what the status of the CEFC loan I would love to know.
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At best I see it as a little deceptive.Was efca made aware of there plan to break away when they loaned them money? Probably left that part out when getting the loan.Cefc hey we don’t like some of their theology and we should probably break away some day but my their loan for our new building sure would come in handy.
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I am a Methodist and have no dog in this fight but have been following these events for over a year. I have a number of close friends who are members of CEFC and have attended worship there several times over the years. I first met Steve Estes in the 1970’s while he was in school in Columbia, SC. He was dating a girl from my church in Asheville, NC. After one of his visits my Aunt was raving about what a wonderful young man he was. Noticing my silence she asked my opinion. I told her I thought he was overbearing, somewhat arrogant, and had an attitude that he was smarter or better than the rest of us. Guess history bears out I was a pretty good judge of character. The CEFC members should use their 2/3rd’s vote not to leave their denomination but to change pastors.
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Thank you for your comment Tom. Many believe Steve Estes needs to resign. Its time for him to go. While people make mistakes what he orchestrated and did to his former daughter-in-law is appalling, angering and uncalled for
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XJN: The truth involves dealing with the real issues, not to “committee” your way out of them. The list does appear civil, but not genuine. Godly repentance yields life.
The family leaders of CEFC do not want the truth exposed, yet only want to “rule” without any accountability. Exiting the EFCA will foster the environment that you have yearned for.
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XJN From what I read on your own church website you do not take a hard stance on end time theology. Maybe that will get corrected once you leave efca.Funny I never heard hardly any sermons on the book of revelation and end time theology.It seems to be important all of a sudden maybe your leadership should produce some sermons on it. They could name the series the biblical view of end times and show that the bible doesn’t match efca views.It would probably get some more votes for exiting efca.
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Yes..always give a biblilcal sermon on the topic you are about to vote on! A great way to lead sheep in the direction you want them to go!!
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Maybe I’m an oddball, but I see a dual supreme irony in this…
Eagle, who has been expressing concerns about the EFCA, is encouraging a church to remain in the EFCA, despite its issues. So it’s an ironic thing from a local church perspective, being encouraged to stay in a denomination with issues.
And on the other side of things, from a denominational standpoint, CEFC is a diseased entity (or maybe a just a diseased leadership). So having it leave the EFCA would, by attrition, (or as they say in sports when a terrible player leaves a team, “addition by subtraction”), make the EFCA stronger, as a rogue church leaves its auspices.
In this case, the EFCA has tried to do the right thing.
I continue to wonder why it’s so difficult for the CEFC’s leadership to simply apologize and repent… you know… like… uh… act the way Christians are supposedly supposed to act. Gosh, this whole thing would just go away in a heartbeat if they could do that. What the EFCA is asking isn’t unreasonable.
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Ejj its a good question…here is what I am thinking and what concerns me. The best possible outcome is going to be through the EFCA doing something. I know the EFCA is not happy with CEFC I have heard that from multiple sources. But let’s say CEFC breaks away from the EFCA…then in 2021 Brock Estes does something similar, and the church (which is then independent) excommunicates another person who is an alleged sexual assault victim. At that point nothing can be done. At least in this situation the EFCA can do something. My hope is that the EFCA will call in the loan and CEFC struggle to pay, and close the church. This church needs to be closed in my opinion. Greg Strand and Eddie Cole have worked hard in trying to solve this problem. They are to be commended for their efforts. Many people in the community appreciate what they have tried to do. But CEFC is basically a rogue church and if they break away then things will get a lot worse. The other day a former member emailed me and said that CEFC is now entering into a cult situation.
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Eagle, whether the loan can be called, and under what circumstances it can be called is most likely a function of how the loan agreement was written up, rather than any EFCA polity or association between CEFC & EFCA.
I would guess that as long as CEFC is making the loan payments on time, the loan can’t be called.
There are all kinds of legal protections in place for both lenders & borrowers in loan agreements now. In my experience, loan agreements over the past 30 years have gone from a few pages, to a dozen pages, to 30 or so, to over 200 or more pages, filled with contingencies after contingencies.
So I wouldn’t hold my breath in expectation that the loan would be called, regardless of whether CEFC remains in the EFCA, unless they thought to include a contingency requiring membership in EFCA, or thought to include a “moral turpitude” clause. 😉
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At the risk of speaking off topic. On this night of members voting to remain in EFCA or not, I cant help but go back to the only passage in scripture that describes a man who was excommunicated (1 Corinthians 5). 1 Corinthians 5:11 describes those who should be put out of the body.
1Cor:9-12
9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[c] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”[d]
Members, please ask yourselves again….do these things describe her who was excommunicated or Brock? According to this passage, WHO acted wickedly? She or he? No matter how the vote goes tonight are you STILL ok with staying under the shepherding care of a pastor, his wife, elders, ministry leader, Bible study leaders, small group leaders and deacons that STILL will not waver on their opinion that they were right in calling her an unbeliever, cast her flesh to Satan, dont need to repent if they think they were right, and refused to discipline Brock the way he should have been from the start?
Can you, as they do, read these verses and still say she is an unbeliever because she would not come back to this church, the authority of his family and their employees, and an abusive husband steeped in pornography?
Do your part in purifying the church of God.
If you know it was wrong, then leave. Otherwise, the judgment due them is coming to you too if you stay and support this. Instead, financially support ministries that rescue the oppressed, and whose leaders share the Gospel to those around them shamelessly.
Trust the Lord to care for you outside of this place, unite you to the body wherever they are, no matter what that looks like. Pray that God will not allow the same to happen to your own daughter some day and then pray for forgiveness, knowing your Heavenly Father is well pleased to lavish it on you!
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Guarantee if it was there daughter thevoutcome would have been different! Absolutely shameful!!
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I can assure you that if my own daughter’s husband held her at gun point, attempted to strangle her, raped her and was steeped in pornography that I would NOT be encouraging her to remain in that place. If she then filed for divorce, and from that point on I knew she didn’t hear from her husband, her husband never from that point on could tell he he loved her, told other people he couldn’t say he loved her and told others he wanted a divorce as much as she…..then WOW….I can not tell you I would be very upset with my daughter. How about you?
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ejj: You have an excellent point… why did the leaders/family finance the $5 million dollar building with the EFCA when they “planned” to leave the denomination?
Truth be told, I would guess that the EFCA is hoping they exit on their own, so they don’t have to publicly kick out CEFC.
Also, eliminating the current leadership renders the members a newfangled start. There are adept men in this church who are willing to lead members in a godly manner.
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I’m very much looking forward to XJN’s response.
Of course XJN will want to set the record straight, rather than allow a blogger over 125 miles away, or disgruntled former members who have left the church, or other interested onlookers both in and out of the EFCA, to interpret what he or she is saying.
It’s so excellent of Eagle to welcome the open exchange of thoughts here. So many bloggers only allow one view of things.
As for me, unless or until XJN addresses this, I’m going to assume that the “Nine years ago, leaving the EFCA was put on the 10 year vision statement” comment was disingenuous. I sincerely hope that my assumption is off-base, and that XJN can explain the reasoning behind accepting a loan from an organization that one has been planning to leave for nine years.
Settling in with a bag of popcorn…
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Better make some more popcorn.I just don’t think you will get an answer from xjn
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Still waiting…
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However, DAS if there are “adept” men who are willing to lead in a Godly manner why have they not done so up until this point? Are there really people holding onto this place hoping things will change? WHY? For the building, for convenience? To have sameness for your families? To see your friends? Do you get affirmation there?
Honestly, anyone left still there now after all that has been exposed is, in my opinion, no different from the leaders and they are where they belong. They know their pastor, his family and many of the leaders of their church have refused to apologize, admit their error, repent….however you want to word it…and yet they insist on staying to turn things around. Your staying there (EFCA or not) is not going to change those who have after years refused to admit their error. One short life. Make great choices now! The heroes i see in this mess are the ones who have been willing to risk the unknown, take a stand for what is right and walk away. Thank you to every one of you who men have courageously done this! The women too of course….but you men, thank you for taking the lead in this!
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Did some work in Everson over the years.I will give you a quote from wat I would consider an unbeliever. I say that to my own shame. I Did Not share the Gospel with the man.Merl Stoltzfus bible in one hand checkbook in the other.I smiled and said nothing.What could I say I agreed with him in my heart.In general I would say the unbelieving world in Elverson allready has them pegged.It’s the religious crowd who attend cefc who doesn’t.Wondering eagle has not come along and slandered there name .They have done that to themselves long before this big bad blogger made his post.It’s a shame they don’t realize that a lot of the community allready scoffs them behind there back. Oh well ignorance is bliss.They would probably view it as religious persecution its amazing wat the mind is capable off.I have two or three more quotes from other people I could mention but I plan on taking them to my grave.They come from the type of people I have done business with for years some religious some not but the type of people who are just good and great to do business with.At the end of the day a lot of the unreligeous crowd in Elverson allready has them pegged.Hey we all need grace . We all think more of ourselves then we ought. LIKE THE BIBLE SAYS
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WOULDN’T IT BE AMAZING TO LIVE IN A WORLD WHERE OUR WORDS REPEATEDLY REASSURE ABUSE SURVIVORS THAT THEY ARE NEVER EVER RESPONSIBLE FOR BEING VICTIMIZED !!
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Agree with you concerned! There is never an excuse for abuse!
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Yes Concerned! And wouldn’t it also be AMAZING to live in a world where our words and actions HELD ACCOUNTABLE both abusers AND those who facilitate abuse?
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“The mouth of the righteous is a fountain of life, but the mouth of the wicked conceals violence.”
Proverbs 10:11 NIV
Certainly they would not say they are concealing anything now because now everyone knows. But they did try to conceal all of this for a long time and told those who left not to talk about what really happened because they said that would be gossip.
So why do the pastor, and others in leadership positions, still not feel the need to apologize for attempting to conceal? …or for encouraging others to conceal it? Can someone still in CEFC please explain why?
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verum, the reason they do not need to apologize is because they are perfect in every way!!
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Well Concerned, i think it was kind of a rhetorical question that Verum asked. And I understand you are angry, but I actually don’t think that they think they are perfect. But rather I am convinced they thought what they were doing was right at the time. Those that killed Jesus also thought that what they were doing was right at the time. That’s why they called Jesus a blasphemer and sought to crucify Him. Their motives were good (to do what they thought God wanted) but afterward some of them realized that what they had actually done and then repented.
I know many from CEFC read this blog. The elders and pastor actually gave an answer as to why they didn’t want people talking about this. They said it was because they wanted Brock protected. That is not a rumor. It’s true. It’s what they said when asked. I just would have hoped by now that every one who told this to people would have realized by now how wrong it was and that they would have apologized for it. First and foremost being to the one they went after, then to the ones they told it to, and then to their congregation. But the letter they sent her this past Dec. did not contain any apology or love. Even better then just apologizing, would have been if they had then sought to correct their actions by disciplining the one they should have in the first place. But hey held fast to the law (of marriage), and ONLY directed toward her, even though Brock had the same intentions for divorce as as her all along and they knew it. Brock may not have served the divorce papers but he wanted to divorce her maybe more then she did. They knew of his intentions to call to arrange to have him sign the divorce papers within hours of the excommunication. But they insisted on calling him repentant based on his words, not his actions for the whole year leading up to the excommunication AND they encouraged him NOT to reach out to her!. They disregarded the human element of love toward the one abused, and that, unfortunately created this mess. All throughout the New Testament it seems that is precisely what Jesus came correcting….the religious leaders that were so hung up on the letter of the law that they were ticked off that Jesus would heal on the Sabbath. They couldn’t see the greater good Jesus was trying to show them, loving and healing the one who was hurt.
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I agree God not man much like Israel the people allowed themselves to be under the influence of there leaders to the point of blindness so have the elders at efree.If they can’t see that in Corinthians 7:15 has nothing to do with this situation IE Declaring Hurit an unbeliever . Thus freeing brock to move on they are spiritually blind.Also I would like to hear a sermon from efree on the difference between worldly sorrow IE repentance and repentance towards God.Repentance towards God is totally different than worldly repentance.Also seeing that according to scripture an elder should be able to teach I would love to hear a message on the two types of repentance.Maybe from one of the younger Elders.Ie Elderly. IF they can’t see the irony in that to bad and yes I know Timothy was a young man.I also know there is a difference between teach and preach.Anyway what I see as sad is as the body of Christ and also people who are not members of the body of Christ as there marriages are being torn apart from pornography boos anger drugs.We need a book on how to have a better Christmas with the Gospel snuck in at the end.Maybe I shouldn’t cut on the book I didn’t reed it.Well I have seen a lot of hurt over the last couple of years and talked to people who were going through tough times.Some believers and some non believers.How to have a better Christmas wasn’t on their radar and probably not Brocks or Hurits. Some people live in a Norman Rockwell world of theology .Don’t get me wrong I listen to hrs upon hrs of bible theology.Nobody would know it by the way I write but i do.I cheated my way through English class .Well if efree moves in the theological direction I think they will a verse comes to mind it talks about philosophy.I pray people will open their hearts and minds because it appears to some you are swerving towards the ditch.Although it appears to me your allready in it.Two last questions to those who attend efree or anychurch wat is the great commission and how many pennies out of every dollar spent when you drop your money in the hole in the wall go for that great commission.Just a simple common sense question.What should the percentage be or isn’t there any.What temple is God dwelling in today and how can we help build that temple higher with Christ being the cornerstone witch one does God care about?Let’s search the scriptures and pray for guidance.We have a great high priest his name is Jesus he is elect and precious like the bible says.What is the dollar value spreading that news.What is the dollar value of the Gospel and a person being baptized into eternal life.Going from unknown with no hope like the bible says.To forknown and predestinated for glorification.
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Our life is an epistle read buy all.The bible says.My apistle isn’t perfect to my own shame.The world is watching us.An unequal balance is an abomination according to scripture can we really say this situation was weighed with a just weight.Some say yes and some say no.That is wat is in question.Seeing the elders at efree seem to be sitting in Moses seat.Judging over the people off efree what would have Moses said.because of the hardness of there hearts Moses said to give a writing of divorcment.Buy the way that was always the man’s job in OT.So if I had to guess Moses would have told Brock to give Neban her divorcment papers and should could be free and so could he.Not the way God intedendid it but he allowed Moses to do it.Funny how a situation like this would have found more grace under old testament law food for thought.
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Agree searching! How disturbing when theology/philosophy/ intellectual thinking trumps common sense! God grant us isxom and discernment!
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Wisdom
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EJJ, it Seems to a pattern. XJN might eventually get back to you many months later…. after she has her someone meet with the elder board to discuss and vote on an answer they all agree on and….it is an answer that is unanimously voted on that they will all agree is truth….and that they agree to make sure there is no gossip (i.e. Anything not discussed outside of what their agreed up on answers are).
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….hence this Blog! Thank you again Eagle!! But honestly, why can’t someone…anyone from CEFC answer some of these very basis questions? We know you are reading this.
Is it because you are not allowed to read it or comment? That would be cult-like behavior on the part of both the ones telling you what to do AND ON THE PART OF THE ONES FOLLOWING!! Or is it because you don’t know the real answers? Excellent points you have made EJJ!!
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The community of Elverson and Morgantown loathe the arrogance of this place. Daily, I hear of folks who do not want to do business with the people of this church. Underneath that $5 structure, something is deeply wrong. Beware
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Still waiting for XJN to respond…
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