An Open Letter to Russell Moore

This is an open letter to Russell Moore of the ERLC. The Wondering Eagle despite disagreement with Russell Moore on Neo-Calvinism, fully supports him in his efforts to speak boldly. This is an overview of the Southern Baptist Convention’s (SBC) racist history and how Donald Trump brought out the worst of the SBC. Russell Moore is dealing with both that and the cognitive dissonance of Donald Trump voters. The SBC needs a leader, and visionary – not an ass kisser who will kiss Donald Trump’s ass. For younger people like myself Russell Moore is a source of deep hope in many ways. 

“Good bye Dave, I can’t stand the lies that you share. Yeah I know all I do is listen to is the right. No I see a man trying to protect what America stood for before people worked to destroy it. I’ll keep praying for you!”

Bob Hennes of Wooded Hill Bible Church on Facebook. Throwing away a 15 year friendship because I have a different point of view. 

“Jesus Christ has not abolished slavery by a prohibitory command. … Under the gospel, [slavery] has brought within the range of gospel influence, millions of Ham’s descendant’s among ourselves, who but for this institution, would have sunk down to eternal ruin.”

Southern Baptist Pastor Thornton Stringfellow in 1860

“There is good news, though, behind all of this, regardless of how this election turns out. The old-school political Religious Right establishment wonders why the evangelical next generation rejects their way. The past year is illustration enough. The evangelical movement is filled with younger, multiethnic, gospel-centered Christians. They are defined by a clear theology and a clear mission — not by the doctrinally vacuous resentment over a lost regime of nominal, cultural “Christian America.””

Russell Moore

Garrett Kell of 9 Marks Del Rey Baptist has good insight into the situation with Russell Moore 

Let’s remember the thrice married Pussy Grabber that the Southern Baptists rallied around!

 

Russell Moore,

I want to write a letter to you and explain the situation that you are facing. There are many issues going on and there is a lot to cover. Basically Russell Moore, I want you to know why The Wondering Eagle still strongly supports you and believes that you are a breath of fresh air in a denomination that has deep systematic and systemic problems. I decided to do this post after reading “Could Southern Baptist Russell Moore lose his job? Churches threaten to pull funds after months of Trump controversy” in the Washington Post earlier this week.  So having said that let me start and going into the issue of politics first.

 

Why Politics Should Not Be Involved…But We Crossed that Bridge

Russell Moore I don’t believe that politics should be involved in the Southern Baptist Convention. If it were me than I think that getting involved should not have happened. However, the Southern Baptists have been politically active since before the American Civil War.  My hope is that they would not be, but to be truthful here is the problem. We have crossed that bridge, the genie is out of the battle and its not something that can be undone right now. So since the situation is in front of us, then we do need to tackle this issue. We can’t avoid it, and yes it’s ugly but its what it is, and we need to face off on it. We can’t act like the issue is not there, after all we can’t stick our heads in the sand.

 

History of Racism in the Southern Baptist Convention 

Slavery was a major issue in the United States, and it divided the North from the South. In the South all the slaves states voted as a block in Congress. Slavery split and divided also the Baptists.  In the 1840’s the three Baptist national societies  had angry debates between the Northern and Southern Baptists. The debates centered on the interpretation of the constitutions of the societies of slavery, the right of the Southerners to receive missionary appointments, and the authority of the denominational society to discipline church members. Plus the South felt neglected in the appointment of missionaries. In 1844 The Georgia Baptists requested the Home Mission Society appoint a slaveholder to be a missionary in Georgia. That request was denied. It was followed up by the Alabama Baptist Convention requesting the Foreign Mission Society if they would appoint a slaver holder. For a second time the Home Mission Society said no. After that the Virginia Baptists called for a meeting which was held in Augusta, Georgia in May of 1845

In Augusta it was agreed to break away from the Northern Baptists on May 10, 1845. A year later they were provisionally organized under a new Constitution in Richmond, Virginia. In his first address to the Convention the first President William B Johnson, pointed out the the North and Southern Baptists were still brothers. He also emphasized that the the separation only involved the home and foreign mission societies. Also that the third national society to include tract publication was not included. Now the new local body could appoint Southerners at home and on the mission fields. Now please note the driving issue in all this was that of slavery, as now slave holders could be appointed in mission fields. By the way it is also worthwhile to note that around the time the Southern Baptists were being formed in Augusta, in May of 1845 the Boston Anti-Slavery society published Frederick Douglass’s “Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass, an American Slave.” The Southern Baptists which was formed over the belief that slavery was Biblical took another step and embraced its racist history a year before the outbreak of the Civil War. In 1860 a Southern Baptist pastor from Virginia by the name of Thornton Stringfellow wrote and vocally defended the institution of slavery. He did this in “Cotton is King, and Pro-Slavery Arguments.” In that publication Stringfellow wrote, “Jesus Christ has not abolished slavery by a prohibitory command. … Under the gospel, [slavery] has brought within the range of gospel influence, millions of Ham’s descendant’s among ourselves, who but for this institution, would have sunk down to eternal ruin.”  After the Civil War in the Jim Crow era Southern Baptist racism I believe continued. Later on nearly a century later it should also be noted that because of support for segregation many Southern Baptists refused to support civil rights in the 1960’s. They took a dark view of Martin Luther King. 

But the issue of racism in the Southern Baptists continues into recent times. In 2012 Southern Baptist ERLC President Richard Land said that black political leaders, including President Obama tried to “gin up the black vote.” Land continued and said the following in regard to Trevin Martin.  “Instead of letting the legal process take its independent course, race mongers are anointing themselves judge, jury, and executioners,Land said. “The rule of law is being assaulted by racial demagogues, and it’s disgusting, and it should stop.” Finally Land also said that a black man is “statistically more likely to do harm than a white man.” So Russell as you can see the Southern Baptists have long struggled with racism and hate from its formation until today. Its a part of the DNA of the Southern Baptist Convention, after all it was the evil institution of slavery which gave birth to the Southern Baptists. Let’s remember Russell Moore that slavery also gave birth to the Civil War. Nothing good comes from the institution of slavery. But the issue of racism would raise its ugly head in the 2016 Presidential election, and it would show why the Southern Baptists would return to their roots of hate. 

 

Donald Trump Has Brought out the the Worst From the Southern Baptists

In 2016 the Republican Party was hijacked by a non-Republican. But the situation became abysmal and dark by what was put forward. Donald Trump is crude, terse and no he is not and will never be Presidential material. Respect is earned and not given and there is nothing that Donald Trump has done that deserves respect. The real issue is that the opposing candidate was extremely weak. But here is the problem Russell Moore…I did a good amount of research and history to show to you why the Southern Baptist Convention is evil. It was formed and created out of the belief that slavery was Biblical. But here is the problem…despite previous attempts at dealing with its racist past both in 1995 and 2016  the Southern Baptists Convention never did. Then came the 2016 election and a dark movement with Donald Trump, and I believe that the following needs to be stated. Donald Trump let Southern Baptists be racist again. Donald Trump made being racist feel good! After all what does it say when you inspire hate groups, Neo- Nazis and so much more to come out and support you in droves? After all according to Politico for the first time since World War II ended in May of 1945 the far right is back in Germany.  The far right is a strong supporter of Donald Trump. You see Russell, Donald Trump made it trendy to be bigoted and he allowed a lot of people to be racist quietly in the ballet box. You can say what you want publicly, pretend to be horrified and then go and vote your hate in the quietness of a ballot box. What makes Donald Trump exceptionally evil is that he appealed to people’s fears and among evangelicals he appealed to their worst parts of human nature. My view of evangelical Christianity Russell took a dark turn when I learned that 81% of evangelicals supported Donald Trump. Among the Southern Baptists I would estimate that Trump supporters stood at about 70 to maybe 75%.

Now here is the other thing that I want to highlight because I feel that its linked to this issue as well. In that same Washington Post edition that had the article about the revolt against you Russell there was another article that was a sign of he times. In Dahlonega, Georgia recently there was a Ku Klux Klan sign that was hung in the town square that created a storm in the community. It revealed the tension, fear and anxiety and problems that existed. You can read about that incident in “In Georgia, reaction to KKK banner is a sign of the times.”  Now Russell you have been adamant in speaking out against Donald Trump in the election and that is commendable. You know the sad part Russell is that those who voted and think they have a seat at the table with Trump don’t realize that they are being used. They don’t realize that they are but a tool. But here is the question I have Russell…since January 20 we have seen some dark stuff. We have seen travel bans, that have ensnared Italians and even a Norwegian Prime Minister. And sadly its just beginning…you know I spend a lot of time reading domestic and foreign press and I read in the European press that have stated that they don’t recognize America anymore due to the hate and some of the changes. So here is my question Russell, are evangelicals going to own the bullshit they fell lock step and behind in November of 2016? Or are they going to act like Mark Driscoll and high tail it out of town and show that in many ways they are no different in the end. Southern Baptists and other evangelicals talk big, but will they act in the end? Just as Mark Driscoll can’t admit his mistakes in Mars Hill Seattle my private concern many Southern Baptists and evangelicals aren’t going to be able admit their error either. If they can’t do this then this will reveal that many Southern Baptists do not have a soul or a conscious. 

 

Regarding Baptists Who Voted for Trump Because of the Open Supreme Court Vacancy 

Russell, now here is another point I have to make. When you were taking on Donald Trump there were many people who were under the impression that they could just vote for either Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton. The reality is that there were other options. Since November I have heard from several Neo-Calvinists as to how they supported Evan McMullin. That deeply impressed me when I heard about its but its a shame that many people looked at the situation in that either/or context of Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton. 

Now Russell let’s have a frank talk about Southern Baptist voting for Donald Trump because of the open Supreme Court seat. Christianity isn’t about control of the Supreme Court or a bi-cameral legislature. That is not what it is about. Christianity has a much different message and those who have turned it into a political message have cheapened it. But for Southern Baptists who voted for Donald Trump because of the Supreme Court open seat issue let me give you this little analogy. That would be akin to someone going to Judas Iscariot and saying the following. 

“Judas my man! Hey bro we need you to do something. You see we need our Resurrection and as such we need you to do something. Here is your 30 pieces of silver. Now go and betray Jesus so he can be killed, and that he can rise again. Yes I know its selfish but we need our Resurrection dude! ” 

That little analogy Russell is what I think happened when many Southern Baptists and other evangelicals kicked the Gospel to the curb out of their own political self interest. They betrayed much of what the Gospel stood for when they embraced Donald Trump. 

 

Cognitive Dissonance of Donald Trump Voters

Now here is another problem Russell which you are experiencing. You sadly are going to be on both receiving ends of this mess. First you bravely called out Donald Trump and challenged him and the Southern Baptist Convention before the election. Now you are dealing with the blow back from some angry people. Here is the problem Russell, and its something that I have heard in discussions from many different people. Donald Trump voters are currently showing their cognitive dissonance in how they are reacting. They invested themself in a difficult situation, put lip stick on a pig and convinced themselves to kiss it. Now they are stuck with it and they have to defend their behavior. So what does that mean for you? Some have to go after you and call you out. Many of these Southern Baptist Donald Trump voters can’t say, “Nope we screwed up…yeah  we  %$#@ up!!.” They can’t do that. Russell, Donald Trump voters are like people who got involved in Sovereign Grace, they have to defend their involvement and activity despite all the red flags. They have to greedily reach for the kool aid, stick their heads in the sand and defend the indefensible. Frankly Russell I don’t see the difference between the two –  Sovereign Grace attenders and proud Donald Trump voters. 

 

Donald Trump on grabbing a woman’s pussy

Regarding Jack Graham and Prestonwood Baptist

Now Russell one mistake that you did made is that when J.T. Taylor of Cadwell Baptist in Georgia and other churches asked you in a series of questions about staff, salary, etc.. of the ERLC. You should have  responded to those questions. That was the right thing to do. However, let me also spend some time talking about the irony of what J.T. Taylor and the other Southern Baptist churches are doing. The reality is that while demanding information and transparency from the ERLC, many of these same churches are also not transparent about their staff information or salary. Does J.T. Taylor make his salary available to people in Cadwell Baptist? My hunch is no that is not likely to happen, however I do intend to follow up with Cadwell Baptist and confirm that fact myself, and write a post about it here. 

But let’s move on to one of the bigger people in this challenge to you as well. Jack Graham of Prestonwood Baptist. Does Jack Graham make his exorbitant salary known?  I have a challenge I want to float out there. If anyone knows what Jack Graham’s salary is over at Prestonwood Baptist in Dallas, Texas I am willing to publish that information. If any former members can answer that question to me than that is something that the people of Prestonwood have a right to know, especially if they are giving money. You know in Dee Parson’s post called, “Russell Moore, the Patriarchy and the ERLC: Why It Won’t Work” she advocated people not giving to the ERLC. My suggestion is this, if Jack Graham or J.T. Taylor will not make their salary of staff information known then why the hell would you give them money? I would not give them a dime at all.  But there is much more to this issue and lets look at Prestonwood in more detail Russell. 

Under the leadership of Jack Graham Prestonwood Baptist is a cesspool of corruption. In 2008 you had Joe Barron who as a pastor tried to solicit sex from a 13 year old girl online and drove 200 miles to meet with her in Bryan, Texas. He was arrested, fined and eventually imprisoned. You can read about it more in this Dallas Voice article. Then there is John Langworthy who was the music minister at Prestonwood from 1984 until 1989. Langowrthy as I understand when facing allegations of child sex abuse was quietly let go.  This happened shortly after Jack Graham took the helm. Langworthy went onto a Baptist Church in Clinton, Mississippi where he served for another twenty years before he was eventually turned in. In Mississippi Langworthy allegedly engaged in sexual abuse as well. You can read about the situation in these articles herehere, and here.  There are more allegations of cover up at Prestonwood Baptist as well. So apparently Jack Graham is going to withhold  $1 million dollars. Maybe if he does that he can use the money to educate his staff on child sex abuse! Other options include paying counseling for the victims, and strengthening the requirements at Prestonwood. Will that happen? Not a chance in hell, and that Russell is the irony in the person challenging you. But here is the real humdinger in this situation. Jack Graham advises Donald Trump. So here is the situation….you have this Senior Pastor who has allegedly been involved in the cover up of child sex abuse advise a man who boasted of sexual assault. Think about that further! You have a Senior Pastor whose church is dogged by criminal allegations and then you have a Pussy Grabber being advised by him. Does that not sound like a perfect couple? Both Donald Trump and Jack Graham are sleaze and they are perfect for each other. By the way Russell is it any wonder why the Southern Baptists struggle with child sex abuse when they warmly embrace a man who has allegedly boasted of sexual assault? Why care about the rape of a child if you don’t give a damn about the rape of an adult.  

 

Young Evangelicals and the Culture Wars

Russell here is something that you should know. You resonate with many younger people. Many younger people are deeply bothered by the issues of racial discrimination and they are also tired of the culture wars. The Southern Baptists who pursued the culture wars are ultimately doing it that the expense of the young’s faith. Many people in their early 40’s and below are simply exhausted of the culture wars. They are tired of the belief that being a Christian means being a certain kind of Republican. They long for something more authentic and deeper and they care about issues which the Southern Baptist Convention has ignored for decades. You hit on that Russell when you raise the issue of racial discrimination and the need for reconciliation. In my lifetime from Fresno, Milwaukee, and now the Washington, D.C. area I see the need for racial reconciliation. Milwaukee was one of the most segregated cities I have lived in. The inner part of the city was full of decay and struggling black families and crime. The suburbs affixed with affluent white homes that showed prosperity of the middle class. 

Many younger evangelicals like myself don’t care about a seat at the table of politics here in Washington, D.C. The fact that you will not be invited to be in the Oval Office to observe something being signed. Good! The fact that you won’t be in some prayer meetings where Donald Trump may be present. Excellent! The fact that you didn’t grovel in the same cesspool as Donald Trump excites many younger people like myself. Russell the fact that you didn’t pucker up those lips of yours and place them on Donald Trump’s ass and kiss away is commendable. The Southern Baptists need a leader and not an ass kisser. Too often many Southern Baptist leaders act and behave like a moth in the light when it comes to political power here in Washington, D.C. The following article that is commentary expresses that as well in “Why evangelical opposition to Russell Moore is deluded.

But here is another perspective you need to know Russell. Many younger Christians both inside the SBC and the Christian community are suffering because of Donald Trump. It is a major problem in that it has split families, friendships and so much more. The following Atlantic article  called “These Conservative Christians Are Opposed to Trump—and Suffering the Consequences” goes into the details of how people are affected. In my own life Russell this has been a personal issue as well. At the start of this post I have a comment that was left on my personal Facebook page. Its not from a Southern Baptist but its from an evangelical Christian from my former church in Wisconsin called Wooded Hills Church. In that a comment which was left on my wall Bob Hennes illustrates why he is willing to throw away a 15 year relationship. I have asked a lot of questions about Donald Trump and still do. Bob Hennes’ action saddens me and reveals how shallow many evangelicals can be. This is happening with many young people as this issue with you Russell is also generational. The older people I don’t think have seen this issue in that perspective.

 

In a Dark Time, You, Russell Moore Bring Hope

Russell Moore I want you to know that I disagree with you on many topics. I reject Calvinism because of how it makes the problem of evil worse. You can read about that in “How Reformed Theology/Neo-Calvinism Make the Problem of Evil Worse: John Piper, Adam Lanza and a Massacre in Connecticut.” And I disagree with quite a bit of what your friend Al Mohler has done. Plus we also need to have a talk on the C.J. Mahaney issue. C.J. Mahaney is just as bad as Jack Graham. But having stated all that here is why I support you Russell. In this situation with Donald Trump and the election I believe you are correct. As I recall you said during the election that you can’t be a Christian and vote and support Donald Trump. I agreed with you then, and I firmly agree with you today. The fact that you have a strong stand and held your ground and clashed with Trump on Twitter is commendable. I already wrote about you once a few months back in “Why The Wondering Eagle is Supporting Russell Moore and his Criticism of Donald Trump and Calling on Him to Stand Strong; Plus Hemant Mehta Gets Involved.” Like I said I am not into Neo-Calvinism, however, I am not so black and white in my thinking that I can’t encourage one when they are correct on the issue. If all one does is attack and attack  and criticize how will any bridges be built? How will discussions take place if all people do is use the nuclear option on each other? That is why I am bucking many people and risking quite a bit in coming out and support you on this issue. You have taken the high ground against Donald Trump, you have challenged the SBC, and what you have done is commendable. I support you 100% in this issue regarding the ERLC. You know Russell Moore I disagree with 9 Marks passionately. I actually lost my source at Capitol Hill Baptist Church who used to want to hang out and talk. Carson Wilson (pseduo by the way…) was not a kool aid drinker. I need to get another source from that church again. But anyhow I noticed on Twitter the other day that Garrett Kell from 9 Marks Del Rey Baptist said something very insightful about the situation regarding you and the ERLC. I disagree with Garrett on so many issues and will continue to do so. But when I saw that tweet I tweeted Garrett that I agreed with what he said. Is the SBC going to be dictated by a minority few? What about when they are people like Jack Graham who are mired in corruption and allegations of covering up child sex abuse? These are deeply important questions to ask Russell. 

But to many young people like myself you are a beacon of hope. The Southern Baptist Convention has some systemic and deep problems going back to 1845. The United States I believe paid the price for the institution of slavery at places like Cold Harbor, Manassas, Antietam, Shiloh and Gettysburg. The Southern Baptist Convention has done no such thing and has not paid or dealt with its slavery history. That dark period of history of the SBC was further complicated by their embrace of Donald Trump. On November 8, 2016 humanity took a major step back, and Southern Baptist voters and Donald Trump voters helped do that. When the SBC behaves in such a way then one needs to question why do they exist? I recently had a talk with a Pastor friend of mine and we discussed why so many Christians are unhealthy. Donald Trump voters in the SBC help illustrate why Mark Driscoll is preaching again in Arizona. It shows that you have a lot of work to do Russell. Your efforts at dealing with racial reconciliation are commendable and I hope they continue. Please speak your mind and challenge Donald Trump when necessary. This post is being written with my conscious and I know many people are going to be livid with me. If they are that is fine. I have already been stabbed in the back once by someone from Eric Simmons Redeemer Arlington. If that happens again, so be it. It is my hope that you will one day become SBC President as I think you will do a fine job. But let’s also discuss the C.J. Mahaney issues as that needs to be resolved as well. 

Again Russell thank you for your time, 

Take care, 

David Bonner 

BTW – While we’re talking about the SBC can you guys talk to Clint Clifton of the NAMB and ask why isn’t Lon Solomon’s McLean Bible being transparent about being an SBC church? 

 

29 thoughts on “An Open Letter to Russell Moore

  1. The Southern Baptists which was formed over the belief that slavery was Biblical took another step and embraced its racist history a year before the outbreak of the Civil War.

    Whose immediate trigger was the 1860 Elections, where these new Republicans (an anti-slavery party) won the White House with the electoral votes of ONLY Free States. Which meant to the Slave States that they had lost their influence at the national level, and the accompanying paranoia that now the Northerners would overrule them on everything.

    Southerners to this day say the cause was States Rights and economics, not Slavery. But at the time, States Rights, Regional Identity, Regional Economics, and Slavery were all mixed together into one entity. (Never mind linkages, this was linkage so tight as to be as one.)

    Liked by 1 person

      • Rent a DVD of 1776: The Musical sometime. And note the continuing undercurrent between Adams of Massachusetts (representing what would become the Free States) and Rutledge of the Carolinas (representing what would become the Slave States)..

        I remember reading the “book” (script) for it once — it included an appendix where the writers listed flat-out which scenes were fictionalized and even in them what was based on fact. They seemed to approach it like a well-researched historical novel, fictionalizing for narrative flow and to bring out the conflicts, but staying as close to the actual personages and events as they could while still letting their story flow.

        Liked by 1 person

  2. My view of evangelical Christianity Russell took a dark turn when I learned that 81% of evangelicals supported Donald Trump. Among the Southern Baptists I would estimate that Trump supporters stood at about 70 to maybe 75%.

    And around 80% is the threshold where Groupthink locks in and Heretics and Dissidents are Purged as Traitors. After said Purge, there is only The One True Way.

    Liked by 1 person

  3. I guess I’m what you’d call a blue dog democrat…. Politically conservative, registered democrat ….. I have, in the past, voted straight republican ticket. I could not vote for Trump – litany of reasons.
    On the other hand, I can not support Russell Moore. I have been a member of SBC affiliated churches since 1978. I have been seriously considering withdrawing my membership. Russ Moore as SBC pres. would make the decision for me.
    Quoting Dr. Moore from one of his articles supporting patriarchy and second class status of women: “I’ve argued here before that, whatever feminism tells us, our choice is not between egalitarianism and patriarchy but between two visions of patriarchy: a Christian patriarchy that protects women as precious weaker vessels (1 Pet 3:7) and a pagan patriarchy that sees dominance over women as something to be grasped.”

    If Golden Retrievers and brood mares can’t be church members, women shouldn’t be, either.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Nancy I appreciate your thoughts. You raise some deep issues with Moore. Patriarchy is a deep concern I agree with you. Part of the reason why I wrote what I did is that I am hoping that it could led to building bridges so that we could discuss these issues. Maybe that will allow those issues and more to be discussed. Also while the SBC has issues in regards to its past so do many churches. The Methodists and Presbyterians I also believe split over slavery before the Civil War. But I think they handle their history better than the SBC. Diversity is strength and your comment has a lot of wisdom in in Nancy.

      Liked by 1 person

  4. Not a Southern Baptist, never been a member of a Southern Baptist church, so my remarks don’t count. That said, Russell Moore is looking to the past and is not in the present. The issue of the wrongness of slavery was settled 150+ years ago. Moore is still fighting something that should be *over and done*! And in the process. he’s missing the two big battles that really will define the future of the SBC. The first is the woman issue and the second is the LGBT issue. I completely understand their position. They think women cannot be ministers of the Gospel. They think LGBT people are awful sinners for their sexual orientation. I (and many, many others) disagree. And I’m of an older generation (late Boomer) than the Millennials. If I feel this way, I can’t imagine how the kids feel!

    Are we going to be 50 or 100 or 150 years from now (I won’t be here) and seeing whatever the SBC or its successor apologizing because for keeping half humanity (that’d be us women) from full membership (to say nothing of leadership) in the church? What about the treatment of LGBT persons in the church? Same deal, I would gather.

    I don’t see the SBC having much of a future in between its authoritarian, neo-Calvinist takeover and its denigration of those of us who don’t happen to be heterosexual males. But again, not a Southern Baptist, so not my problem ultimately.

    Liked by 1 person

    • But the heterosexual cis males can wipe their mouths and announce “There’s nothing wrong! The System works Just Fine (for ME)!” secure that they are God’s Speshul Pets.

      Liked by 1 person

  5. Okay, David. Now just take a deep breath.

    IN………………………………………………………

    OUT…………………………………………………..

    Feels much better, doesn’t it?

    You really should calm down before you write, especially after getting your hand slapped by your Mom at TWW for political content. This entire post looks like a left-wing rant worthy of MSNBC and The Huffington Post.

    Now, please reread your post. Do you really believe everything you wrote?

    Liked by 1 person

    • Thank you, Ken, for confirming to me today that TWW is no longer a safe place to speak out against narcissism and bullying endemic in American Christianity. In fact your coming on here and talking down to Eagle in this way just confirms to me we are dealing with spiritual bullying of those who oppose the Bully that a majority of evangelical voters brazenly enabled. We need more diversity of opinion and less shutting down of dissent. TWW is apparently no better than TGC on that score, and they lost me after declaring a no politics policy while advocating against abuse in Christendom on their terms only. Thank you for confirming that, for all those of us who have felt betrayed by their complicit silence in light of the Narc’s pattern of public abuse of anyone who challenges or holds him accountable in some way. I will not stoop further to respond to mockers like you. You despise the real concerns Eagle raises here that must be addressed by those responsible for them. Russell Moore is someone with whom I have many disagreements, but at least on this area he has shown character those at TWW and in other places apparently lack. He is to be commended, as is Eagle, for showing courage in speaking truth even when the truth hurts. It is pure cowardice to be willfully silence in the face of any kind of abuse, and there is no Christian integrity in speaking only those truths that do not offend one’s friends.

      Like

      • “Thank you, Ken, for confirming to me today that TWW is no longer a safe place to speak out against narcissism and bullying endemic in American Christianity.”

        I don’t see how I did that….but you are welcome.

        “In fact your coming on here and talking down to Eagle in this way just confirms to me we are dealing with spiritual bullying of those who oppose the Bully that a majority of evangelical voters brazenly enabled.”

        My comment was not meant to talk down to anyone. It was meant to make a point that writing while upset is not a good idea. You may write things that you regret later. As far as “spiritual bullying” those who oppose “the Bully” (I suppose you mean Trump), I did no such thing.

        “We need more diversity of opinion and less shutting down of dissent.”

        I agree.

        “TWW is apparently no better than TGC on that score, and they lost me after declaring a no politics policy while advocating against abuse in Christendom on their terms only.”

        That’s a little unfair to TWW, but I’ll let Dee and Deb defend their position if they choose to do so,

        “Thank you for confirming that, for all those of us who have felt betrayed by their complicit silence in light of the Narc’s pattern of public abuse of anyone who challenges or holds him accountable in some way.”

        I’m not sure who “the Narc” is, but again, you are welcome.

        “I will not stoop further to respond to mockers like you.”

        I’m sorry you feel that way.

        “You despise the real concerns Eagle raises here that must be addressed by those responsible for them.”

        You do not know that and you have no proof. I thought you were not “stooping” to respond to me.

        “Russell Moore is someone with whom I have many disagreements, but at least on this area he has shown character those at TWW and in other places apparently lack.”

        If Russell More had character, he would have already called out CJ Mahaney, Mohler and the gang for their issues, but he hasn’t and I don’t see him doing so in the future. Let me know if he does.

        “He is to be commended, as is Eagle, for showing courage in speaking truth even when the truth hurts.”

        I don’t believe Moore has spoken the “truth” about anything, but that is a matter of opinion.

        “It is pure cowardice to be willfully silence in the face of any kind of abuse, and there is no Christian integrity in speaking only those truths that do not offend one’s friends.”

        I agree. Russell Moore is a coward for not calling his buddies out on CJ and company for their abusive behavior.

        Liked by 1 person

    • Ken is the reason why the SBC has a problem with child sex abuse because its comfortable with supporting a pussy grabber? Why care about child sex abuse if you are okay with rape? When does abuse became acceptable? Only when its your candidate and you have hopes of winning the White House so you can get rid of a political program that you don’t like? How is tolerating an abuser for the White House any different than letting CJ Mahaney preach at T4G? Especially after him being dogged by his alleged criminal allegations? Its the same problem in my book, at the end of the day its the same thing. I wrote this post from my heart. I know plenty of people hurt because they refuse to support Trump. There are many Christians who are suffering and sticking your head in the sand doesn’t help it hurts the problem. Yes I knew this post would be controversial. Yes I knew that many people would get pissed off. Yes I knew that people would put words in my mouth. Yes I know people would think I bow to the the forces of 9 Marks or CHBC. I covered my basis in this post, do you think 9 Marks and Mark Dever still want to see me continue to raise the Mahaney issue? You know I have never blocked anyone (except Seneca) and have no plans of doing so now. Everyone is free to speak their mind. If we can’t talk about this stuff and circle the wagons we have taken a step backward in my book.My blog is not devoted to the SBC. Mostly I write about the EFCA and intend to do so, so one post here and there should not cause a coronary. Again you are free to respond.

      Liked by 1 person

      • My apologies, but I decided to read all the articles you linked in your post, so my response is going to be delayed. I want to make sure I am fair to you and at the same time get my points across. I am a slow reader and an even slower typist, so please bear with me. Thanks.

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      • Ken we may disagree on this one issue but I am not a Neo-Calvinist apologist. That said you are free to say what you want to say and speak your mind. The more diverse the views the healthy this blog will be the course of time. But take your time and say what you want to say. You will never be censored, silenced or told you can’t say anything. This blog would become much poorer if people like you didn’t speak their mind.

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      • David,

        Just a couple of things I do NOT intend to do in this response:

        * I am not accusing you of being a Neo-Calvinist apologist.

        * I do not intend to put words into your mouth.

        From your OP:

        “This is an overview of the Southern Baptist Convention’s (SBC) racist history and how Donald Trump brought out the worst of the SBC.”

        “… I did a good amount of research and history to show to you why the Southern Baptist Convention is evil.”

        The SBC does have racism in its history, but saying that the SBC is evil is way over the top and an insult to the millions of members and the thousands of churches that make up the SBC. This is why I wrote my first response about writing while upset, because I cannot believe that your really think the entire SBC is evil.

        “In 2012 Southern Baptist ERLC President Richard Land said that black political leaders, including President Obama tried to “gin up the black vote.” Land continued and said the following in regard to Trevin Martin. “Instead of letting the legal process take its independent course, race mongers are anointing themselves judge, jury, and executioners,” Land said. “The rule of law is being assaulted by racial demagogues, and it’s disgusting, and it should stop.” Finally Land also said that a black man is “statistically more likely to do harm than a white man.” ”

        Land’s statements, while certainly not the smartest statements ever delivered, contain some truth. Reasonable arguments can be that there are “race mongers” out there (Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton come to mind). If a statement is true, I can’t see it as being racist (I do not know about Land’s statistics on black men causing harm to whites, but again, if it is true, is it racist?).

        “But the issue of racism would raise its ugly head in the 2016 Presidential election, and it would show why the Southern Baptists would return to their roots of hate.”

        “Donald Trump let Southern Baptists be racist again. Donald Trump made being racist feel good! After all what does it say when you inspire hate groups, Neo- Nazis and so much more to come out and support you in droves?”

        “Donald Trump made it trendy to be bigoted and he allowed a lot of people to be racist quietly in the ballet box.”

        These statements are where I believe your post goes off the rails. How is voting for Donald Trump racist? I don’t want to put words in your mouth so correct me if I’m wrong, but it appears to me that you are saying that if you agree with Trump’s immigration policies, you are racist. You don’t know the motives of Trump voters. Is it possible that these voters think that illegal immigration should be stopped our borders should be secured? As for the real racists out there, Trumps policies on immigration can be twisted to support their racist agenda. That does not mean that the policies are racist.

        “In Dahlonega, Georgia recently there was a Ku Klux Klan sign that was hung in the town square that created a storm in the community.”

        Racial tensions have been high for a while (Ferguson, Charleston and others), all before the rise of Trump. The Dahlonega incident was due to one crazy 84 year old woman with a beef against the town, one backwoods white supremacist and a bunch of less than mature students at the local small liberal arts university. Mix that with a media circus and you get this incident. No Trump is required.

        “But for Southern Baptists who voted for Donald Trump because of the Supreme Court open seat issue let me give you this little analogy. That would be akin to someone going to Judas Iscariot and saying the following.

        “Judas my man! Hey bro we need you to do something. You see we need our Resurrection and as such we need you to do something. Here is your 30 pieces of silver. Now go and betray Jesus so he can be killed, and that he can rise again. Yes I know its selfish but we need our Resurrection dude! ” ”

        This analogy would be true IF voting for Trump because of possible Supreme Court appointments is the same as selling out Christ. More on that shortly.

        “That little analogy Russell is what I think happened when many Southern Baptists and other evangelicals kicked the Gospel to the curb out of their own political self interest. They betrayed much of what the Gospel stood for when they embraced Donald Trump.”

        from your first response:
        “Ken is the reason why the SBC has a problem with child sex abuse because its comfortable with supporting a pussy grabber? Why care about child sex abuse if you are okay with rape? When does abuse became acceptable? Only when its your candidate and you have hopes of winning the White House so you can get rid of a political program that you don’t like? How is tolerating an abuser for the White House any different than letting CJ Mahaney preach at T4G? Especially after him being dogged by his alleged criminal allegations? Its the same problem in my book, at the end of the day its the same thing.”

        Trump’s character should have been a concern for all Christians. It certainly was for me. I know many people who genuinely agonized and prayed about it and came to the conclusion to vote for Trump. You did not come to the same conclusion, as is your right, but your reasoning is not 100% correct. Approving of child sex abuse and supporting a pussy grabber are simply not the same thing. Also, as bad as Trump’s disgusting behavior is, you cannot say that is was rape. Southern Baptists are known for support of the idea of the Priesthood of the Believer (or priesthood of believers, if you prefer the BFM 2000). While “in your book” you cannot see the difference in supporting Trump and allowing abuse, is it not possible that a Christian, after prayerful consideration, can come to a different conclusion?

        As for the SBC problems with child sex abuse, the real cause is that church leaders would rather try to bury sex abuse charges than risk “the good name of their church”. That is simply wrong and has nothing to do with supporting Trump.

        “When you were taking on Donald Trump there were many people who were under the impression that they could just vote for either Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton. The reality is that there were other options.”

        Reasonable people disagree with your rationale. It is likely that if half of the Evangelicals voted for someone else, Hillary would be the president today. As you know, most evangelicals view Satan himself as being a better option.

        “But let’s move on to one of the bigger people in this challenge to you as well. Jack Graham of Prestonwood Baptist.”

        Yes, Jack Graham is sleazy. Yes, Jack Graham loves to be seen as an advisor to the president. But Jack Graham is far from the only person opposing Russell Moore. One thing you must remember, SBC churches and their members have no control of the operation of any SBC entity, including the ERLC. They can express their concerns to the entity board, but that’s about it. As a last resort, the only option an individual church has is to cut their funding. Over 100 SBC churches have done the same thing, Yes, this is a small percentage of SBC churches and withholding funds is a debatable tactic, but it is the church’s option.

        “Many younger Christians both inside the SBC and the Christian community are suffering because of Donald Trump. It is a major problem in that it has split families, friendships and so much more. The following Atlantic article called “These Conservative Christians Are Opposed to Trump—and Suffering the Consequences” goes into the details of how people are affected.”

        It is unfortunate that a ministry would get rid of a volunteer due to their political views, but of the ministries questioned in the article, none were connected with the SBC. Paid employees are a different issue, such as the Focus on the Family situation. They are well within their rights to dismiss people that oppose the views of the organization.

        “The United States I believe paid the price for the institution of slavery at places like Cold Harbor, Manassas, Antietam, Shiloh and Gettysburg. The Southern Baptist Convention has done no such thing and has not paid or dealt with its slavery history.”

        I think the SBC certainly has paid for slavery with the blood of their members.

        There are a few articles I would like you to consider regarding opposition to Russell Moore that may provide some additional perspective.

        The first one is from Janet Mefford. You may recall that she got into hot water herself for questioning Mark Driscoll about plagiarism.

        http://janetmefferd.com/2017/01/russell-moore-vs-conservatives-this-isnt-just-about-trump/

        The next is from Todd Wilhelm at his blog:

        https://thouarttheman.org/2016/11/11/influential-baptist-leaders-growing-tired-mohler-moore/

        You can also go to http://sbctoday.com/ and scroll through the articles from the last 3 months or so. There are lots of Russel Moore posts, some better than others.

        Thank you for allowing me to respond. I apologize for the delay and my lack of eloquence. I hope I was fair and properly made my points.

        I will continue to pray for you and your family.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Ken-

        Sorry been busy. Here are the problems with the SBC.

        1. It has not dealt with its race issue. The organization never dealt with the issue and it was born out of the belief that slavery was Biblical. Its interesting because my purpose here is to write about the Evangelical Free Church of America. The EFCA is almost the exact opposite of the roots of the SBC. The EFCA in that regard is refreshing. It was not an organization that started out of a like minded belief that slavery was Biblical. Instead the EFCA consisted of being an organization having deep roots in Scandinavian immigrants. There were a lot of churches in the EFCA early on when created in the 1950’s that still spoke Norwegian, etc… So I say what I say from an outside perspective.

        2. What is illegal immigration under Donald Trump? I agree the United States needs to protect its borders, but the restrictions affected many legal minded people who were working within the system. Trump is appealing to people’s fears. I was horrified when I say refugees and even translators who worked with our forces in Iraq. Do you know that Al Qaeda and ISIL have those translators targeted? Compare and contrast how we have dealt with refugees in the wake of the Iraq conflict and the Vietnam conflict. We took in a lot of people from Laos, and Vietnam who fled.

        3. I do believe that selling out your beliefs for a Supreme Court appointment is self-defeating. In the end you sell yourself out. Many younger people like myself are tired, just tired of the culture wars. I think this is a generational issue to be quite frank.

        4. I think that the voting for Trump by Evangelicals put showed the dark side of evangelicalism. I am left here wondering if evangelicalism is far too corrupt to save and if the evangelicals who voted for Trump confirmed what Michael Spencer said about the Collapse of the Evangelical Mind. I want to do things in moderation but man some of the stuff I am seeing in the atheist community about evangelicals and Trump is jarring, and I think its stuff that many evangelicals need to listen to.

        5. Ken we are going to disagree the other options are valid. The best part is that one didn’t prostitute themselves out for Trump. I knew many Christians who just could not go there. They were horrified. And then I have heard from some Neo-Calvinists who supported Evan McMullin. That stunned me, but in my quest to be open and to learn I wondered if sometimes I am too hard on Neo-Cals in that one area.

        6. Focus on the Family in my view needs to join East Germany and the Soviet Union in the dustbin of history, Very little has come of it which is good.

        Again I looked at those articles you left. I know Russell Moore has issues, but just as Neo-Calvinism is destructive to the SBC, so is the culture wars. I supported Russell Moore because he had the courage to do something brave, courageous and inspiring. In the end he was almost prophetic in many ways, and like some of the OT prophets the %$#$ hits the fan, and people don’t want to hear. While I disagree with him on so many issues I am grateful that he spoke his mind and heart on this issue. Younger people like me appreciate what he did. Thanks and I am happy to engage and dialog with you.

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  6. On slavery: maybe the SBC, as an institution, owes an apology for it’s history with slavery, but all SBC members do not. Not all of us are descendants of slave holders. My husband’s grandparent’s were Canadians who migrated to Maine (warmer climate???). None of my ancestors owned slaves. And, as a matter of fact, my ancestors fought for the Union – Kentucky Infantry, companies F and G. One of my gg-fathers was captured by confederate troops and held in prison in Bowling Green, KY for a while. Maybe the SBC owes my family an apology, too! ; ^ )

    Liked by 1 person

  7. I’m a political, moral, and fiscal conservative who voted for Snoopy, and I mean that seriously. I couldn’t vote for either candidate in good conscience.

    Is there just *no way* to be a political, moral, and fiscal conservative WITHOUT being racist, bigoted, homophobic, and/or transphobic? I don’t know anymore.

    Liked by 1 person

    • There used to be an urban legend that the reason my state outlawed fictitious write-in candidates was that in 1968 their electoral vote almost went to Snoopy or Batman.

      Liked by 1 person

  8. Eagle,

    I don’t begrudge you not liking/voting for Trump, a narcissist womanizer. But enough already with the name calling/slandering/maligning/the 60+ million of those of us who did vote for him. I am none of those things you accuse me of, please hear me, I am none of those things you accuse me of being! None! None! None! I repeat, none of those things! Please stop attacking me!

    I like you. I love what you are doing pushing the issue with the church in Elverson for example. I don’t give a rip about the Southern Baptist Convention or any denomination for that matter. Wherever there is hierarchy, power and control, it all which lends itself to abusers. (Also, insert Democratic and Republican Parties, and then some…)

    I pray that your Mom gets better. I pray that your faith in Christ gets strong.

    Our faith really boils down to: Do we believe the Bible to be the inerrant Word of God? (In it’s original form…, translations do have errors) And is God who He said He is in His Word and Christ, the Way, the Truth and the Life? I very much believe it and that we must repent and accept His sacrificial death on our behalf and we must continue to walk in His ways and yield to Him becoming more and more Christlike as we follow Him. (I believe it. And even if I didn’t believe it, my lack of belief is irrelevant to whether it’s true or not. i.e. If it’s true (which I believe it is), then someone choosing not to believe it does not make it any less true.) In the Bible it says not everyone who says “Lord, lord” will be saved. To some who claim Him/but do not obey Him/walk in His ways, He will say “Depart from me, I never knew you.” It also says that even Satan appears as an “Angel of Light.” I say this for two reasons. Based on the election you indicated you were on the brink of losing your faith again and also Julie Anne tweeted about someone losing his faith because of Christians that opposed Obamacare that he was benefiting from. This frustrates for me for 2 reasons: 1) Not, everyone who claims to be a Christian in fact is (I’m not referring to you) and 2) If someone loses their faith because of the actions of people who claim to be Christians, then the individual’s faith was not rooted in the Bible and/Christ, it was rooted in the actions of either fake Christians or real Christians (but still fallible humans). And that’s not a fair/just burden to put on those of us who are genuine Christ followers. (At least Julie Anne has commented that after having discussions with friends who voted for Trump who explained why, she still respects them/understands why they did even though she disagrees with them.)

    I grew up in fundamentalism and am very grateful for somethings ingrained in me and very bitter about other things. Grateful, they led me to Christ and insisted we not believe what anyone says (even themselves), without checking it out for ourselves in the Bible. (It seemed to be caveated though with the notion that by the way any conclusions you come to that are different than what they said are blasphemous.) I am bitter in that I now think what they taught as headship and women’s roles were not/are not Biblical, but are bad translating and proof texting. Gilbert Bilezekian’s Beyond Gender Roles book really opened my eyes.

    In my childhood, they were pre-occupied with the End Times, and were convinced that the Anti-Christ’s religious theocracy would be an alliance between Roman Catholicism (a revived Roman Empire), Soviet Russia “the bear” and/or with the European Union (ten nations/kingdoms). They made us watch a movie called “A Thief in the Night” multiple times to scare us and our friends we invited into praying the “sinner’s prayer” for fire insurance, an eternity in heaven vs. hell and then we wouldn’t have to worry about the Tribulation and the Anti-Christ reign through it because we would be raptured before it. (Better to be scared into salvation, then to complacently end up in hell.) I can’t tell you how many times, I prayed the sinner’s prayer just in case it didn’t take the first time (even though they preached eternal security) and I can’t tell you how many times if my family was late showing up to pick me up somewhere that I slightly started to fear just maybe they’d been raptured and I’d been left behind after all (Note this was years before the Left Behind Series, but the authors credit “A Thief in the Night” (and probably its sequel, “A Distant Thunder”) with inspiring them.). The United States is not mentioned anywhere in the Bible and speculation was (is) that maybe it won’t exist anymore or maybe it won’t be relevant. The world will be against Israel. The Anti-Christ theocracy will go after Christians and Jews. Convert or die.

    The threat of Communism was real and palpable. Mom told me that Stalin had killed more than Hitler, something that was very much believed to be true only not widely publicized. However, I just now googled and am learning it was believed to be true, but may not have been. But Stalin was also a horrific murderer nonetheless.

    http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2011/03/10/hitler-vs-stalin-who-killed-more/

    Communism was spreading. The generations at that time were well aware of the murderous devastation of tyranny from WWII and the Holocaust. Never again! is often the rightful slogan of the Jews.

    There is nothing sinful/anti-biblical about nationalism/national sovereignty and walls to protect. Remember Nehemiah? Even the New Jerusalem will have walls (I don’t really understand why, but it will). Yay for America! Yay for Britain/Brexit! And something you totally missed in the article you linked about Germany:

    “All of these voters have one thing in common: They are tired of apologizing for their national history. “We have this problem in Germany where you’re not allowed to love your country because if you do you’re considered a Nazi,” says Sarah Leins, a 30-year-old AfD supporter. “We have to overcome this.”

    They should love their country as I do mine and we are not wrong for that. Globalism is not a good thing. (See Tower of Babel. See End Times Prophecy.) So I’ve been called a xenophobe. Give me a break. If I feared other cultures, I would not have done so much international travel.

    On a different front, God created/designed men and women/marriage/pro-creation. And the Bible explicitly states that homosexual behavior is not okay. Now we seem to be in bizarro world where we are considered mean if we agree with the Bible and we, God/the Bible must all be “homophobes.” Again with the ridiculous name calling. To suggest I’m “homophobic” I guess that means supposedly I either fear homosexuals or fear maybe I am one. I don’t know, the label is ridiculous nonsense. Having said that, I do need to be careful not to be insensitive to those who do have same sex attraction. I am grateful for TWW for posting the story of the young man who was horribly abused (one of four) who told their stories and how the depraved pastor was vile using his same sex attraction as justification for him being assaulted. They should throw that pastor in jail and throw away the key as far as I am concerned.

    And let’s see from you I am told since I voted for Trump, I’m in a cult and drink Kool-Aid. Well, if I’m in a cult I really stink at it because I can’t find anyone to follow. I’m an evangelical, but where is there a church I can go to that is both Evangelical and Egalitarian? A place that is Egalitarian, that is not pro-homosexual marriage? I really want to know, I’d love to go to a church like that. And beyond that, where can I go that is neither Calvinist/Luther/Arminian? (Sidenote: You may be aware of the dirt on Calvin (Michael Servetus). But did you know about the disgusting Ant-Semiticism of Martin Luther? I’m grateful for what He did in re-introducing salvation by grace not of works…but he has vicious Anti-Semitism writings/rants “The Jews & Their Lies” contributed to “Christians” being complicit with the Holocaust. I am bitter that I had to learn this in a Holocaust museum rather than church. I thought quotes attributed to him couldn’t be true, but in fact they were.)

    The biggest error in what the evangelical churches teach is no personal accountability/responsibility, instead they teach that via God’s unconditional love for us, we can live however we want and still have our ticket punched for heaven. Do not get me wrong. I know that we do not deserve and cannot earn our salvation. We are saved through our repentance and accepting Christ’s sacrificial death to atone for our sins. But repentance is largely overlooked by most. A repentant person does not habitually choose to live in sin and is not ruled by the flesh. I feel this error is at the root of both Armenianism/Luther and Calvinism. I am sure I’m oversimplifying, but I feel like the former says everyone can be saved via the “sinner’s prayer” (baptism with Lutheran?) and live how they want to as they are always once saved, always saved, and the latter says God already chose those who would be saved so don’t worry about it, you can live however you want. From cover to cover, the Bible is about choosing good over evil. Jesus said the Law and the Prophets can be summed up in 2 commandments, Love the Lord your God with all your heart soul and mind and love your neighbor as yourself.

    Our works/how we live does matter. No we don’t earn our salvation, but God won’t be mocked, what a person sows they will reap. (Verses like that one, the passage about not everyone who says “Lord, Lord “ will be saved. He will say “Depart from me I never knew you” and the book of James all make a lot more sense to me now than the “once saved, always saved,” doctrine. “Once saved, always saved,” teachers have to dance around these verses and other verses) Again, don’t get me wrong, I don’t believe that we can lose our salvation per se. I think we can reject it. I don’t think salvation is an on again off again thing. God knows the end from the beginning. Our days are numbered/he knows them. He knows our heart.

    I don’t blame people for getting things wrong as they are where I was, victims of bad teaching/false doctrine. I do however, blame people for not wanting to get it right, not being open to listening/considering other points of view. We all have decisions to make on what we believe.

    God has shown me much in the last several years as I have had my eyes opened to depravity and abuse, particularly within the church. His Word is now more alive to me than ever. Quite frankly, I am very ticked off that I grew up in the church and went for all of my adult life until now and was basically anesthetized so as not to truly understand/recognize true evil/depravity. We’re taught everyone is evil, therefore no one is evil, we’re taught sin leveling which is not at all Biblical. i.e. Yes, he’s an axe murderer, but what about you? Did you speed on the way to church? We’re all sinners you know. It took God showing me the identity of an evil depraved abuser, cut from the image of his father, the father of if lies, who wears a sheepskin disguise to wake me up to true evil/depravity/sadism and how it is safely embedded and enabled in our churches.

    I still hold to the inerrancy of Scripture. Besides, the abuse situation, from having read the Bible multiple times now, cover to cover, God’s been showing me how much the church has drifted far from the Scriptures they claim to adhere to. (I’ve also read a few books that are Scriptural that I believe are necessary antidotes to erroneous teachings, particularly Gilbert Bilzekian’s Beyond Sex Roles: What the Bible says about Women in the Church and Family. I now believe I was sold a bill of goods on women’s roles. I’m ticked off that I was and that it continues to happen and is being pushed by the likes of the “Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood.”)

    Again, Scripture has really come alive to me. When I learned about evil through the situation with the wolf, I was angry that I was caught off guard/surprised and unprepared to recognize that what I thought was a sheep was actually a wolf. I wondered why the church didn’t teach me it. Why wasn’t it in the Bible? (Of course, reading through the Bible again and comparing it to the situation, I realized it is all over the Bible. As I said before, I feel that we are anesthetized to not see it because of false doctrine like sin leveling and proof texting I also realized that although I believed the Bible to be true, I had been reading it like it was fiction. I now read it through the lenses of a friend who had been abused and let the reality/feelings set in. How deeply do we think about what Tamar David’s daughter went through when she was raped? Why is Bathsheba treated like an adulteress rather than both a rape victim (her) and murder victim (her husband)?)

    The Bible verse that is the most chilling to me is Matthew 7:14, where Jesus says that the road and gate is narrow and few find it.

    I really appreciate blogs like yours, TWW, Spiritual Sounding Board, Crying Out for Justice, and My Only Comfort. To some extent your sites are an oasis to me, but even there I have major disagreements (so again, I’d love to figure out what cult I’m supposedly drinking Kool Aid/Belonging to). I have gotten/get much from the Crying Out for Justice web site. Yet although Pastor Crippen has softened much on headship, he and Pastor Powell (My only Comfort) are unwilling to even consider the possibility (read Bilizekian for instance) that maybe just maybe the Bible doesn’t teach headship after all and maybe just maybe Calvinism is not correct. (By the way, I would not have any trouble going to their churches, it would be far more refreshing than what’s available to me where I live.) I think some of Pastor Crippen’s preaching smacks of Replacement Theology (the church has replaced Israel). God is not finished with national Israel. Don’t get me wrong, I really like most of Pastor Crippen’s preaching. I disagree with Deb from TWW about creationism (maybe homosexuality?), but I would love to go to church with her and discuss it. It’s reading the tweets/your posts/sometimes Julie Anne’s and even Boz Tchvidian’s where either Christians who voted for Trump are bashed, or there’s an underlying assumption that voting for Trump was anti-Biblical that sends me through the roof and is drying up the oasis.

    I’ve said all this to give you context for why I voted for Trump. First I will own up to some hypocrisy in that fact that I do believe character matters. My mom died back in 1977 before so much was known about JFK and she said if he wasn’t trustworthy with his wife (all his affairs) how can the country trust him? I agree with her. President Clinton was/is vile with his affairs and even an alleged rape. I vehemently disagreed with all the people who said their personal lives are irrelevant to their Presidential qualifications. Now the chickens have come home to roost with me voting for Trump. It’s the first time, I felt sick to my stomach in who I voted for. I believed there were 2 Narcissistic Abusers to choose from and so I voted for the one who claimed to be for things I am for rather than the one who openly opposed them. I loathed him. Truthfully, I loathe him less now/like him more, but I still don’t trust him and still think he’s a bully. He may end up being one of the best presidents of my lifetime, though. It’s sad to me that it’s taking a narcissist bully to do the right things. I would have preferred a trustworthy moral candidate be in there to do the right things, but any that appear to be seem to either not be or fall prey to political correctness or lobbyists.

    So why did I vote for/do I support Trump? I am now seeing the End Times prophecies that I was taught in my youth being played out before my very eyes, except not the way they thought and no one is paying attention (which is Biblical). It’s not the Roman Catholic Church/European Union (way more than 10 countries now). Frankly, that never made sense to me at all. I have learned much from Walid Shoebat, former terrorist turned Christian. Read the articles on Shoebat.com (Someone else I don’t totally agree with doctrinally. He’s too soft on the Catholic church and his son his one of the worst misogynist headship proponents. Again for being a cult follower, I sure am lacking a cult to follow.) He read the Bible to prove to his wife that it was wrong/full of errors. Instead he learned that his Christ (Mahdi) was the Anti-Christ and vice versa. He recognized all the countries that are prophesied against are Muslim. It’s the kingdom that was and is and will be at the time, the little horn that came back, etc.. It is a revival of the Roman Empire. The Eastern Roman Empire capital was Istanbul/Constantinople/Ottomans. Thinks about it all the Biblical countries, Ishmael vs. Isaac, targets Christians and Jew convert or die. As Walid has said, Christian fundamentalists give their critics a headache. Islamic fundamentalists lob off the whole head. Revelation talks about seeing the souls of those who were beheaded. Back in 2010, I heard Walid single out Turkey as a likely place for the Anti-Christ to come from and that was way before the rise of Erdogen who wants to restore the Ottoman Empire/Caliphate/be the Mahdi.

    President Trump has been very vocal in his support of Israel. He’s said and I hope he lives up to it that he will finally move our embassy to Jerusalem, the nation’s capital. President Obama was awful about Israel and complicit with the UN going after them. There is no such thing as Palestinian people. They are Arabs. The land is thought to have been first called Palestine as a derivative of the extinct Philistines by Roman leader Hadrian as a slap to the Jews. I’ve even heard that the first people called Palestinian were Jewish and that at 1st the Arabs did not like being called Palestinian. They are not interested in a two state solution. They will not recognize Israel. They teach in their schools hatred of Jews. Islam says they are pigs. There already is/was a 2 state solution. It was set up that Jordan was supposed to be the Arab country and Israel was to be the Jewish country. The world is against Israel and keeps pressuring them to give up more and more of their land. What they took after being attacked was never allotted to the Arabs in the first place. The Arabs just took it/it was always disputed.

    This is what Armageddon is all about the world unified going against God’s chosen people. And I’ve now read the Bible from cover to cover numerous times and as much as I’d like to be wrong, no where do I find that Christians will be raptured before the tribulation.

    Islam’s founder was a vile violent brutal pedophile. We think the TGC treats women badly, multiple it by 1,000 and you have Islam/Sharia law. I live in middle America and saw just yesterday blocks from my house a woman and a man and she had a full burka on, with only slits for her eyes to see out. It makes me sick, to see this vile bondage and just blocks from my home.

    No I cannot stop prophecy from being fulfilled. I cannot accelerate it or slow it down. But you know what? I will have to answer to God one day, and I will not roll out the red carpet to invite this demonic, anti-Christ ideology that wants to destroy us into my country. And if you think my stance is not biblical think again. Yes, God said to treat the strangers/foreigners/aliens among Israel well as they were aliens in Egypt. Those were people that wanted to be there/to assimilate/follow God. Yet they were not to take in people that worshiped foreign gods.

    And what about NAFTA? That has not been good for our country. We need to get companies back into our country again.

    And what about unborn babies? It’s time we quit murdering them in the womb.

    We need Supreme Court Justices that are Constitutionalists not people who legislate from the bench.

    Some have benefited from Obama Care, but many have suffered, we need something better.

    No I don’t blindly follow anyone/party. I’m disgusted with the Republican bill HR 1313 that would allow employers to collect our genetic information and use it against us.

    I thought Dennis Hastert, former Speaker of the House was a good guy/Christian, turns out he’s a pedophile.

    The Republicans had control of Congress for awhile and did virtually nothing to stand up to President Obama.

    The attacks against President Trump and supposed indignation is laughable. All those calling for Jeff Sessions to step down, who said they never talked to the Russians who were shown to be liars…. (Then we have Maxine Waters who’s deeply concerned supposedly given that “Russia invaded Korea” and then even she winced when Nancy Pelosi said she saw nothing where she could work with President Bush (meaning Trump so she lost all credibility): http://www.breitbart.com/video/2017/02/07/nancy-pelosi-weve-seen-nothing-i-can-work-with-president-bush-on/

    I’m getting tired and really need to get this posted. I want to circle back to you and the weakness/hypocrisy in your arguments. Again, I like you and am not upset at you not liking Trump, it’s the things you are saying about me and everyone else who voted for him that are blatantly false/unfair/send me through the roof.

    First of all, Trump’s pussy grabbing comments were vile and so were his affairs. I would rather have voted for some one that would favor the policies he favors and the wherewithal to carry them out without bowing to lobbyists, political correctness the media, etc. and not be immoral. But I had to vote for Trump to get the policies I wanted and someone not owned by anyone, someone with the wherewithal to do them.

    If that’s what really bothers you then, why are you not equally disturbed with JFK, President Clinton, and those who voted for them? In fact I saw you even quote JFK as a slap to Trump. JFK was a “pussy grabber” grooming intern Mimi Alford, asking her to perform oral sex with Dave Powers while he watched and asking for her to do the same with Ted (she refused the latter). He and Bobby used/discarded Marilyn Monroe. Numerous, numerous affairs/even sharing a mob mistress I believe. He treated women like dirt. Where is your moral outrage for them and the people who voted for them? President Clinton even allegedly raped a woman.

    You: After all what does it say when you inspire hate groups, Neo- Nazis and so much more to come out and support you in droves?

    Me: What does it say about the anti-Trump crowd when anarchists and hate groups and so much more come out to vilify the president and the Government in droves? Does Madonna and her threats on the White House, and her misogynistic offer of oral sex and saying she would swallow represent you? Do Ashley Judd’s vile words at the rally represent you? Does that march on Washington that did not allow pro-life women represent you? Does a brutal grisly mock bloody abortion of baby Jesus represent you? Granted this was not in the U.S., but it’s connected (see the “pink pussy hats”).

    http://www.cnsnews.com/blog/michael-w-chapman/womens-day-protestors-perform-abortion-virgin-mary-mother-jesus

    You should understand the cognitive dissonance us Christian Trump voters have. You are doing the very same thing by supporting Russell Moore, arch defender of CJ Mahaney and proud Patriarchist who horrifically attacked those of us who voted for Trump. He also supports his plagiarist predecessor Land and he’s also tied to anarchist/globalist George Soros. Are you now a TGC Kool Aid Drinking CBMW cult follower?

    Anyway, Eagle it’s very late and I have to get to bed. I just ask that you lay off those of us who voted for Trump. First of all I don’t want to be against you. In many regards we’re on the same team (abuse). I do appreciate you and I appreciate that you welcome all to comment. But please stop with all the attacks on us who voted for Trump. I can match you point for point if I have to/choose to. I don’t know that I want to/will, though. It’s not a threat I just want to enjoy reading your posts again.

    Anyway, I’m not a cultist Kool Aid drinking racist bigot zombie. Good night. Hopefully, you are sleeping and hopefully your mom is doing better.

    Like

  9. Very well written! You hit these points well.

    A question to neo-Calvinist:

    Let’s say a man claims to be a Christians in your church. He got married for the THIRD TIME in January this year. A few months later he was heard by many to say the following about other women:

    “I moved on her (another women, not his wife) like a b*tch, but I couldn’t get there, and she was married. Then all of a sudden I see her, she’s now got the big phony tits and everything.”

    “I’m automatically attracted to beautiful [women]—I just start kissing them. It’s like a magnet. Just kiss. I don’t even wait. And when you’re a star they let you do it. You can do anything … Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything.”

    1) What would your neo-Calvinist do? Will this guy get disciplined? And if he doesn’t repent will he get excommunicated from your church? Will you say that he isn’t a Christian?

    I certainly hope that your answer is a yes he will be disciplined and then excommunicated. And yes you will say that he isn’t a true Christian.

    If your answer is no, I am very concerned about you. Because you have excommunicated other people for a lot less. And you have called people pretender-Christians for a lot less. That includes wives that are trying to divorce their flat out abusive and cheating husband. Instead of excommunicating the un-repenting husband that keeps on abusing and cheating, your churches excommunicated the victim wife seeking a divorce. There are a million other things. But what’s the point of listing them all?

    If you answer is indeed yes, then make no mistake that yes I am talking about President Donald Trump. So you agree that he should be disciplined and excommunicated. And that he is not a true Christian.

    2) If that is the case, why did you vote for him?

    You said so yourself that if he is in your church he should be disciplined and excommunicated. And that you will label him a non-Christian. So you agree that he is just another lost sinner trapped in sin and influenced by Satan.

    Now if you are saying Trump was the better candidate out of the two, I will actually understand. Hillary Clinton certainly isn’t the most honest Christian woman neither.

    3) So then the next question: Why are you defending him?

    Let me repeat. We agree that Trump is not a Christian. He is a lost sinner influenced by Satan. But since he is a better candidate than Hillary Clinton, you voted for him. Ok understandable. But that isn’t my question. My question is why are you now, today, defending Trump’s actions?

    Shouldn’t you instead be against every single sinful thing he does. Trump sinning shouldn’t surprise any of us. He is not even a Christian. But shouldn’t you, today, stand against every sin he does and side with his oppositions?

    I just want you to think about what you are doing, that’s all. Ignore what your leaders tell you. Think for yourself. You submit to God and the bible alone. Do not let your leaders become an idol.

    Like

    • BTW by sin I mean things like clear racism. Things like saying “All middle easterners are terrorists”. Or you ban all refugees just because 0.01% of them might be terrorists.

      Where in the bible did you see proof of this as how Christians should behave? Nowhere.

      Instead I see how Jesus went to spent time with people who has deadly diseases. And early Christians would stay behind to help plague victims and spread the Gospel, out of love, and many Christians died as a result. You have to understand that 33-50% of the populations will often get killed by this plagues.

      If Jesus and the early Christians didn’t even run away from plague victims, why are you running away from refugees just because 0.01% of them might be terrorists? Are terrorists more deadly than plague victims? Can terrorists kill 33-50% of the USA population?

      No chance.

      And if you claim to be a Christian and yet you are racist, I worry about your eternal salvation. Understand that Jesus was super comfortable in heaven. You are not even worthy to be a slave to Jesus. Countless angels begs for just one chance to serve Jesus. But Jesus loved you so much that he came down from the comfort of heaven to die for your sins, so you can have fellowship with Jesus. Do you not understand this?

      Then why are you hating on someone just because they have a different skin color than you? You were worth less than an ant and Jesus came down to die for you because he loves you. From that he counts you valuable, as his brother and friend. This is how much Jesus loves you. So why can’t you love your neighbours as yourself? Is Jesus asking too much from you? That if you want to serve Jesus, you go serve your neighbours and bring the Gospel to them. Because all these neighbours, even if they don’t believe, are loved and created by God. After all that Jesus has blessed you with, is this really too much to ask from you?

      Liked by 1 person

  10. Pingback: A Visit to the Smithsonian of African American History and Culture; Plus Some Thoughts on Evangelical Christians and Racism | Wondering Eagle

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