An Atheist Group in Southeast Texas Takes Care of the Homeless, and in the Process Teaches Why you do not Need God to do Good

An atheist group in South East Texas gave birth to a movement of atheists who help the homeless. In the process they also have shown how you do not need God in order to be good, perform acts of charity or love. The Wondering Eagle which writes about atheism from time to time wants to encourage the South East Texas Atheists to continue to help the homeless and better our species. 

“How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world.” 

Anne Frank 

“Act as if what you do makes a difference. It does.”

William Jones 

setas

The South East Texas Atheist Helping the Homeless

 

The first give away of Atheists Helping the Homeless on September 9, 2009

This blog writes about and examines the atheist and secular movement as stories and news develop. There are a few things that bother me deeply here at The Wondering Eagle. The first deals with how some Evangelical Christians have engaged in discrimination of atheists. Its a major problem and its something that needs to be discussed and admitted. Secondly this blog acknowledges the growing nones, and its part of the reason why this blog supports secular humanist chaplains in the United States military. As a Christian I am appalled over how many parts of my tribe have treated those outside the faith. As situations and stories become known The Wondering Eagle will write about them in the course of time. One final point that I would like to add before getting into this post, this blog is interested in telling de-conversion stories from time to time, and if you would like to explain how you went from Christian to atheist I will gladly give you the platform. You can read about it here, and read one such story here. Recently in the news I heard of a story that I put on my pile of items to write about, because it offers a lot to think about.  

 

Atheists Helping the Homeless 

Down in South East Texas, an atheist group is feeding and helping the homeless, and from what I am reading they are doing a better job than some of the Christians are doing. The South East Texas Atheists have been helping the homeless since 2009 according to their Facebook page.  If you want to read how this came about here is the history of how Atheists started to help the homeless in Texas. Then the South East Texas Atheists in 2015 that same atheist group started a project that resulted in regularly helping the homeless monthly. It is the brain child of Rob McWilliams who at one time was homeless for three years. It was his desire to help others that led to this project coming about. So once a month a group of atheists get together and help out the homeless in Beaumont, Texas. During that time a number of skeptics, free thinkers and others provide bottled water, deodorant, clothes, food and other amenities to those in need.  The goal for Rob and his group is not to drop the food off and let the homeless be, but instead to befriend, talk and get to know them. This organization is always taking donations and they have an active Facebook group which you can access.  All the activities are done without advocating atheism in the process. Its just a program that helps people that are down on their luck. 

From my understanding the group has faced discrimination from Christians in the area who are angry that they are helping the homeless in a secular way. In someways however,  those Christian groups that help out do limited engagement. In reality its almost like dropping off food and leaving the homeless to themselves. This is how it was described at The Friendly Atheist. 

Today, as we had lunch with our local tent city, we were told us taking the time to hang out with them, eating and having a good time was more important than the actual food.

They said a few churches also bring food to them, but hand it out of their vehicles then quickly make their exit without as much as asking them how their day has been.

We were told that treating them as humans and not just a charity was the best part of our visit.

They are also launching other chapters as well. Here is the breakdown of this movement: 

  1. In June of 2012 a new Atheists Helping the Homeless launched in Dallas/ Fort Worth, Texas.
  2. Joe Zamecki organized a new Atheists Helping the Homeless group in Houston, Texas in July of 2013
  3. Also in July of 2013 Vicky Gettman organized volunteers in San Antonio, Texas into a new chapter called Atheists and Humanists Helping the Homeless. 
  4. The next expansion came in April of 2014 when Bryan McDowell organized volunteers into East Texas Atheists Helping the Homeless. 
  5. Nate Smith then founded the first chapter outside the United States in Kamloops, British Columbia in Canada. 
  6. An attempt to start an Atheists Helping the Homeless in Iowa by Nika Kaye did not work out and was shut down. 

From there the group grew to have a presence in the following cities in the United States: Los Angeles, San Francisco, Charlotte, Modesto, Indianapolis, Spokane, Nashville, Las Vegas, Atlanta, Mobile, Denver, Kalamazoo, Chattanooga and                   Columbia, South Carolina and Searcy, Arkansas. There have also been two international chapters in both India and Queensland, Australia. 

 

You Do Not Need God to do Good Things 

Years ago when I was in my faith crisis I was asked to listen to a sermon by Matt Chandler. In that talk Matt spoke about how you do not need God in order to do good things. It was something I was already realizing as I was in the depths of a faith crisis. There is a lot of stuff taught in Christianity that is not true. And all too often many evangelical Christians have bought into the notion that you need God in order to do good things in life. That it is the reborn Christian, the “new Creation” who betters society, the world and the church. And the cold hard reality is that is not always true. There are many people in the world who are outside the Christian faith who do good, amazing and kind things. And each and every time they do acts of charity or love, they further make this point. In taking care of the homeless the South East Texas Atheists and other groups further illustrate that claim by evangelical Christians is not true at all. But in addition that also brings about another question that must be asked. If many Christians buy into the notion that you need God to do good things, then what about Christians who engage in allegations of criminal activity? 

 

On the Flip Side What About Christians who Allegedly Engage in Criminal Activity? 

This blog has written multiple stories of deeply disturbing situations involving allegations of criminal conduct or wrongful activity. For example here are a couple…I have been writing about an Acts 29 church in Memphis, Tennessee called Fellowship Memphis. In that disturbing tale the worship pastor was allegedly into voyeurism and he secretly recorded females in the restroom. In the process it is my belief that child pornography was manufactured. When Rick Trotter was let go, the victims were allegedly forced to forgive him. Rick Trotter then went onto another church in Memphis and did the same thing. You can read about the disturbing affair in “The Sordid Tale of Rick Trotter, Bryan Loritts, John Bryson and Acts 29 Fellowship Memphis and Downtown Presbyterian Church.”  Then in the Northeast United States there is another troubling story. It involves Steve Estes, who is still teaching Practical Theology at Westminster Theological Seminary outside of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Steve’s son, Brock allegedly raped his wife while drunk and also pointed a loaded gun at her. The person at the center of the story knows she could be dead. When Hurit filed for divorce in the allegedly abusive marriage Steve Estes allegedly orchestrated the ex-communication of his daughter-in-law. The situation is still playing out in the Evangelical Free Church of America. You can read the story in “Steve Estes and Community Evangelical Free Church in Elverson, Pennsylvania: A Painful Story of Domestic Abuse, Inappropriate Church Discipline, and Failed EFCA Polity.” I could go on but I believe I made my point. If some Christians are going to continue to make the claim that you need God in order to be good, I will continue to point to stories like the ones above and ask them how they will explain that aspect. Many Christians buy into the notion of a transformed life and I think that poses incredible risks when we are speaking of sex offenders, those who engage in criminal activity and more.  I would like to pursue this issue in further detail in another post.

 

This Christian’s Encouragement for the South East Texas Atheists

Rob McWilliams and those of the South East Texas Atheists I want to give a shout out and say…well done. While we may disagree on God, we are still members of the human race. Our species and humanity have many social ills that plague and create problems. I am happy that you are taking on some of those problems and helping those down on their luck, dealing with mental illness, or helping those who are veterans dealing with the psychological wounds of war. You are doing an incredible service and this Christian is grateful for your work. There is too much need in the human race and your efforts help considerably and its too modeled.

Here is another factor as well to consider. For too long there is too much garbage that has been taught in modern evangelicalism. There has not been enough focus on the poor, and the broken, and what it means to love and serve others. When you do work that helps the homeless and puts the Christian church to shame I believe you are modeling that love where many Christian churches are failing.  You are showing the problems and issues that some of us inside the church have been concerned about. In other words I will put it like this…you are loving and helping others better than my tribe is doing. That is to be commended. I am not image conscious and I firmly believe that criticism of my tribe is valid especially with all the corruption, politics, and other problems that hemorrhage out of it. While I am based in the Washington, D.C. area the fact of the matter is if I was based in South East, Texas I would love to hang out with you guys from time to time and just help out. The fact that you do much of this with no strings attached is even more beautiful. My hope is that you will continue to do what you are doing and to further grow as an organization and help those in need. So from one member of the human race to another member of the human race, Rob McWilliams I am proud of you. Thanks for what you are doing, and please keep it up. Ignore those from my tribe who will insult, degrade, or mock you. And if you guys have problems with discrimination I would be happy to write about it. Perhaps one day Atheists Helping the Homeless can come to the Washington, D.C. area. It is needed here and I think in the place that is ground zero for the culture wars and politics you guys could make a profound statement. Keep up the good work in helping others and keep putting my side to shame. If we ever met one day I think we would find that there is much common ground that we could share. I understand your next give away is February 26, 2017, and the details can be accessed on your Facebook page. Man I wish I could be there to help out. Well that is the post for the day, take care guys and know that I love you. I invite feedback, and pushback. Differing points of view are always welcome here. 

14 thoughts on “An Atheist Group in Southeast Texas Takes Care of the Homeless, and in the Process Teaches Why you do not Need God to do Good

  1. I don’t think I need to tell you this, but good deeds does not get anyone to heaven. According to the Bible, oh, I’m not supposed to mention bible, huh? Oh well…

    James 2:26
    Faith without works are dead.

    Anyone can have works without faith. That’s a no-brainer. But, Christians that do not do good deeds, from the heart, their faith is dead.

    As James states, he shows his faith by what he does.

    As Jesus states, when you take in the homeless, you took him in. You gave Jesus a drink of water. You visited Jesus in prison. You gave Jesus clothes.

    Faith is all about what you do for Jesus, through other people, because you never know that you might just have “entertained” an angel, just like Abraham did.

    I always thought that Christianity was about eternal life with Jesus…not deeds of being a “good person”, as if being a good moral person was the ultimate goal. It’s not.

    Ed Chapman

    Liked by 2 people

    • Ed, I understand what you are saying, and I agree with you that Christianity isn’t about being good. That said, the Bible is a little more complex. Yes you have those verses you referenced. But consider you also have the verses where Jesus asks, “Did you feed me when I needed food. Did you visit me when I was in prison, etc…” The Bible is a lot more complex than I think we have admitted. And that is not mocking it. But remember in John 14:6 Jesus does say who he is. And I am not denying that either.

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      • Actually, wonderingeagle, that’s not completely true, once you have read the whole bible as a story line.
        It took me studying the 7th Day Adventists, who are legalists, to finally figure it out.

        I wanted to know why they insist on going to church on Saturday instead of Sunday. And, wow, did I get a serious revelation. Then the whole New Test made sense to me.

        Law vs. Faith, where Calvinists and others teach Law Plus faith, plus this, plus that, plus one more thing.

        So, no, wondering, the bible is really much simpler than people may think.

        God made Abraham a promise, and he believed it and lived that belief.

        The law…of Moses…Abraham wasn’t under that law at all. Romans 4 explains it, that no law in the law of Moses makes anyone righteous, but the only thing that makes one righteous is faith alone. And, NO I do not believe in the Calvinists POV in regards to “saving faith”. I do not believe in the definition of “original sin”. I do not believe in Catholicism stuff that both Luther and Calvin brought into Protestantism.

        It’s so simple. It’s not complicated.

        Good works, like taking in the homeless, is a PERSONAL thing, not a MISSION thing, not a MINISTRY thing.

        Good works is when YOU personally see someone in need, and IF YOU ARE ABLE to help. Not everyone is able to help. It’s certainly not due to a lack of compassion. Can poor people afford to take in the homeless when they, themselves need that can of tuna fish to feed themselves? And if your landlord catches a homeless person in your house, the landlord wants more rent money.

        We have a lot of homeless people in the Seattle area. But it is due to their own choices of not wanting to get off drugs. Not because they are turned off by the idea that a Christian might push God on them.

        We call those people the fishes and loaves people, who are greedy for the food and shelter that people will freely give out of compassion, when they are not as grateful as someone who sells them drugs instead.

        Wise people don’t get taken for when considering helping the homeless. Some are homeless by their own desires to do drugs, living under a bridge, for example. Do you know how hard it is to get a drug addict off of drugs? If you put one of these drug addict homeless people in your home, you might lose all your stuff so that they can buy more drugs.

        And, we are worried that Christians aren’t doing enough?

        But all these things are reasons to study the SOURCE. Christians can make Christianity complicated, when in reality, it’s EASY.

        Jesus did say that HE is the one that takes our burdens (YOKE) , so that we can RELAX and TRUST him.

        We are not under all those DO’S AND DON’TS.

        If you love your neighbor as yourself, there is absolutely no way possible to steal from that neighbor, etc. So, we are not “OBSERVING” a law that states “Thou Shalt Not Steal”. Why should we be?

        Legalists want you to observe the law. The 7th Day Adventists want you to observe the law. Calvinists want you to jump thru hoops. Not normal Christianity where I come from.

        Ed Chapman

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  2. The goal for Rob and his group is not to drop the food off and let the homeless be, but instead to befriend, talk and get to know them.

    Isn’t that what the Church did originally?
    Become family and social network for rejected losers?
    Before it all became Four Spiritual Laws, Sinner’s Prayer, cut the notch on your Bible, then retreat back behind the walls of your church?

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  3. Yes of course non-believers can do good deeds. Many of them do it selflessly. And there are plenty of very nice people who are non-believers. And no Christian should second guess the motives of these good non-believers.

    But with that said, good deeds doesn’t get a person into heaven. No one can earn their way into salvation. Salvation comes solely from accepting the love of God through Jesus’s death and resurrection.

    I say this not to be judgmental. If you are a non-believer, please listen to my point of view for a second. I personally believe that if someone doesn’t believe in Jesus, that person will be eternally separated from God. If that is the case and I love you, how can I keep this from you? Think about it. How much do I have to hate you to not tell you about heaven or eternal life?

    Christian can easily keep to themselves and ignore non-believers. But because of love (at least for me), we tell you the truth as per the bible.

    I will also talk about God’s judgement. God’s judgement is to call the believers to live with God eternally. And God will separate himself from non-believers eternally. That is it. And that is fair if you think about it. If someone doesn’t want to be with God, why would God want to be with him/her?

    But what about the lakes of fires in hell? I believe lake of fires means the everlasting torments in hell. However be careful here. It said nothing about God putting the fires there. The fire might very well be caused by the humans and demons there.

    Of course I am not certain about this. But every time the bible talks about hell, it just say that there are lakes of fires in hell. That lakes of fire exist to torment people. But not once did it say God put those lakes of fires there.

    Remember this place is filled with creatures that hates God and hates their neighbours. They will torture each other eternally out of the evil in their hearts. There really is no need for God to even punish them.

    Do we really think a hell full of selfish creatures can stand “united” to fight against God for long? Within a minute they would be fighting against and betraying each other for supremacy. They will fall just as the Tower of Babel fell.

    2 Timothy 3:1-4

    “But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God.”

    And the demons certainly hates all of humanity with a great hate that we don’t even understand. And humans won’t stand a minute without God’s protection. An illustration of these demons in the form of locusts.

    Revelation 9:3-11

    “3 And out of the smoke locusts came down on the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes. 6 During those days people will seek death but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them. 7 The locusts looked like horses prepared for battle. On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces. 8 Their hair was like women’s hair, and their teeth were like lions’ teeth. 9 They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle. 10 They had tails with stingers, like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months. 11 They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon and in Greek is Apollyon (that is, Destroyer).”

    If you want to be on the side of love, come to the side of Jesus. Only God will ask us to love our #1 enemy and also our #2 and 3 enemies. Only the love of God is crazy enough to make us willingly die for helping plague victims.

    Liked by 2 people

    • Hello CHIPS. I would like to say that since this hell and sort of sorting followers from non followers into eternal punishment or reward realms is what you believe happens, I do see how you would want to warn people. That sounds like a terrible fate to befall anyone. So since you believe that is true, thank you for giving out a warning.

      Personally I’m atheist for many and sundry reasons (like I’m sure you’re a theist and more particularly a Christian for many reasons) and my beliefs and understanding of the truth lead me to not find eternal claims like that convincing. But to each their own! I did want to call attention to one thing in your last paragraph you may not have considered.

      If you want to be on the side of love, come to the side of Jesus.

      This is a really jarring statement after you warn me that your deity will punish me eternally if I don’t join his team. Doesn’t matter if I’m neutral in that God’s universe, I’m still getting burned eternally. Can you see how contradictory that sounds to an outsider? God says love Him or He’ll burn you with fire for eternity. Maybe a different sort of example would work better for recruiting people? How about something like worship my God and He’ll make you a better person, give you an easier life, better parking spaces, something like that? A positive pitch rather then a threatening one might get you better results if you’re worried about people’s eternity.

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  4. Hi Blue,

    Thanks for your comment. I understand a bit where you are coming from. How can God be loving when he will sent non-believers to hell. I myself at one time lost my faith and this was one of the issues I struggled with.

    I eventually do come back to faith. It will take a lot of writing to explain how I resolved the above. But I will give you a short version.

    Let me say right from the start that even if God is all unfair and not loving, it still doesn’t mean he doesn’t exist. The idea of an all loving God comes first from Christianity. All other foreign Gods are conditional love. You do what they want and they will love you. Just believing in these foreign gods aren’t enough.

    A question we have to ask is: Do we believe that SOME people should go to hell?

    Think of the worst people in human history. Hitler. Stalin. etc. They killed millions. Do we think they deserve eternal hell fire? Think from the prospective of those direct victims.

    Now imagine for a second that we are born in Syria. We had been taught since childhood that, perhaps, the likes of USA soldiers were the worst humans in history. And we literally see USA fly their planes over our heads and bomb our love ones to death. So we hate USA soldiers and we think they should burn in eternal hell fire.

    Now go back to us. We are in North America. So of course we do not agree that USA soldiers deserve eternal hell fire. They are not perfect of course. But they aren’t totally evil.

    However the above is our OPINION. This is very important. Who is to judge that our opinion is worth more. How about the opinions of those in Syria? Now of course Syria were brain washed. But North Korean would of course say the same about us.

    Of course the USA soldiers did a lot of good works. That much is true. But Syria can say the same. Who is right?

    Here is my point: No one can live so sinless that they never offend anyone.

    If there is a righteous God, he cannot leave any sin unpunished. He hears every single cry for justice. So the question is who should he listen to? Is it fair if God only listen to those in USA but ignore those from Syria? Who is to judge whose opinion is right?

    Another shocker: Those that sins less often ONLY do so because they were ALREADY put in a situation to sin a bit less. For example a child was born to a multi billionaire. He grow up with a silver spoon and he never stole any money. Is this child really righteous because he never stole? Nope that isn’t fair! If this same child was put in a very poor family that is starving, who can say this same child won’t steal?

    The point here is, I want you to understand the mess this world is in. What does justice mean to you? In all honesty is it true justice or just your opinion biased justice? Put yourself in God’s shoes for a second. What would you do? What can a all loving yet all righteous God do?

    Three choices:

    1) Punish no one – Let all injustice go. Even Hitler and Stalin won’t get punished but will in fact live forever. Because else everyone will be punished.
    2) Punish everyone – Justice against all. Even the “nicest” person will get punished. Because else no one can be punished.
    3) Punish some and forgive others.

    I hope you understand a bit now why option #3 was the only way. Why yes some people will go to heaven and some will go to hell. It only appear unfair on the surface. But if you consider it a bit, I hope you can also see why option #3 is the only way.

    But even #3 cannot just be done. Because sin cannot be unpunished. If God sees evil and doesn’t punish, how can God be just? In fact God is so righteous that he cannot stand any evil. How can an all righteous God loves sinners? That’s why Jesus must come to pay for our sins. The punishment for sin wasn’t forgotten. It was just taken upon by Jesus on the cross. The all mighty and glorious God emptied himself to die for those that he loves deeply. There is no other way to eternal life.

    So who should be punished and who should be forgiven? How about those that freely chose to have faith in Jesus, and freely choose to try to loves God and loves their neighbors? They will do these not for a reward on earth, but because they are so filled by God’s love that they are compelled to love back in return. And when they love, great will be their treasures in heaven.

    There are other issues. Like how about a Buddhist monk that never had a chance to hear the Gospel? Here is my personal belief (not in the bible). If a person never heard about Jesus but look at the marvels of this world and the universe, and realize that there must have been an all powerful and all loving creator and worships that creator, that person will be saved. This is the faith that saved everyone before the coming of Jesus. This is the faith of the likes of David and Noah.

    However if a person hears about Jesus but rejects Jesus, that person won’t be saved.

    People that loves God finds evidence that shows that God is fair. People that hates God finds evidence that shows that God is unfair, and hence God cannot possibly exist. It is impossible for Christians to defend against every single attack. This is where faith comes in. There is always faith required. If people wants evidence, even if they see Jesus literally resurrected they still won’t believe. They might not agree but I think it is true. Look at how Pharaoh reacted to the plagues against Egypt.

    Now it is not blind faith. There is actually very strong historical evidence that shows that Jesus did in fact died and then resurrected. Consider reading the book “The Case for Christ”.

    I hope you understand a bit why I decided at the end that yes God is love and he made the best judgement of all.

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    • Hey CHIPS, thanks for the response. Like I said above, we both have many personal reasons for our different personal positions of belief in the existence of gods and in particular your god. I can see you’ve done some investigation into apologetics. Well I’ve done quite a bit myself and found it lacking. Perhaps I was remiss in not mentioning I used to be Christian many moons ago. Its a long and mainly boring story how I left the faith that I really don’t want to get into (debates about the existence of gods can be so boring), but I’ll put this out there, I didn’t want to leave the faith. I just didn’t find any evidence that wasn’t circular or special pleading. BTW, most apologetics books like Case For Christ aren’t written for outsiders, they’re written for insiders of whatever faith tradition is being defended. I thought it was a very one sided book that was very unbalanced and dishonest to other viewpoints.

      So you posted 3 ways that your deity can dispense eternal justice. Quoted for reference.

      1) Punish no one – Let all injustice go. Even Hitler and Stalin won’t get punished but will in fact live forever. Because else everyone will be punished.
      2) Punish everyone – Justice against all. Even the “nicest” person will get punished. Because else no one can be punished.
      3) Punish some and forgive others.

      How about 2 more options off the top of my head.
      1. Punishment for a certain time, like prison is today, the time would be for reforming the ones being tortured by your gods hell, when they break and start worshipping their torturer, well that could mean they’ve reformed and could be let in.
      2. Eternal reward for those who followed, annihilation and end for those who didn’t. Sure they dont’ get eternal life, but they also don’t get tortured by a loving god for eternity.

      But that’s all just arguing over how many angels dance on the head of a pin. Hint, it’s 7 and I’ll start a crusade against those who say differently. 😛

      Ultimately I just saw you pitching what you perceive as a real threat and trying to warn others. I was just offering you a differing approach then threats if you wanted to sell your religion better for more conversions or safety from what your deity will do to them if they don’t meet its demands. I have offered the same advice to others in other faiths who were pitching their faith (Islam, Wicca and Baha’i off the top of my head). Figure it’ll help the free market of religious faith be able to keep providing a great contrast to each other and easily sell theirselves to consumers (believers). More options for people is a good thing in a pluralistic society

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      • Interesting ideas on those 2 options. I will say firstly that I do not know how eternity is going to work. A lot of it is outside the bible. As such everything is speculation. I just have faith that God’s justice is above my justice. God’s fairness is above my fairness. And God loves all humans so much more than I can love anyone. As such I do not need to worry at all about an “unfair” God.

        Another thing is that God is not here to answer all our questions about why he is unfair or why he didn’t provide enough evidence for his own existence. God just exists and he created us to love Himself and love our neighbors.

        And even with 100% evidence we know some people still won’t believe. Balaam the wicked prophet for example knows 100% God exists (God spoke to him directly) but obeys his selfish desires instead of God. Many people knows that God exist but God is taking away their “fun”, hence they rejects God in all ways.

        Do we really think we can argue our way and win on Judgement Day? It is no wise in my view to claim that God doesn’t exist because God isn’t fair. Even if God is all “evil” and all “unfair”, that creator God can still exist. Instead people rather believe that everything came from nothing (Big Bang Theory). And that everything is random chance, such as a fish eventually becoming humans.

        As for your options I don’t think they will work.

        1) It won’t work because those people in hell will literally never repent. On this earth everyone is being “approached” by the Holy Spirit. Even non-believers have a conscience when they know they did something evil. Now sometimes we listen and sometimes we ignore that conscience. But deep inside we know right and wrong. However in hell God will withhold the Holy Spirit from them. So it will be filled with creatures that hates God and hates their neighbours, and without any guidance by the Holy Spirit. If on this earth with the Holy Spirit, and with God providing many wonderful things to them, these non-believers hates God, think God is unfair, etc. then why would they repent in hell? No amount of pain and punishment can cause them to repent. In fact they will hate God even more and curse God day and night. Or in that hell they are so hateful of their neighbours and how to hurt each other, that God was the last thing on their minds.

        2) It won’t work because once God willed something into existence, it cannot die. God cannot will something and then un-will something. That would make God double-minded. And that would be very scary for us! This would mean that God can will salvation for all of mankind 2000 years ago, but now today he can “no longer will” all of our salvation. Because God changed his mind!

        3) As for your proposal, that is the Prosperity Gospel. That our live right now will be better if we believe in God. We get our Best Life Now(TM). There are indeed churches already doing that. It might be attractive, but it is total falsehood. There are plenty of people who give up all their time and money for God, but in this life all they got was death. Look at the lives of the likes of Jeremiah, Paul and Peter. They all faithfully serve God but they all get nothing in this life. But great will be their treasures in heaven.

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      • Cool beans CHIPS. Like I said, it was just some thoughts on a better pitch for your faith. My examples may not work but I think you may do better with a positive pitch rather then a threatening one if you’re looking for converts in the diversity of available religions, philosophies and viewpoints that exist out in the world today.

        Even if God is all “evil” and all “unfair”, that creator God can still exist.

        Ain’t that the truth. An unpleasant truth is still true. It seems to be a common human thing to want to only want the niceties of the world, rather then the whole picture.

        Liked by 1 person

  5. Perhaps this quote sums up the point Eagle is trying to make, though I could be wrong & far be it from me to put words in his mouth. 😉

    “If we make loving people a strategy for something else, it isn’t love anymore.” -Bob Goff

    Liked by 1 person

      • And love should not be a competition, either. There is a reason (get it? Reason, LOL) that atheists are putting a title on their “mission”, as if this was a football game between ARMY and NAVY. In this case, it’s Christians vs. Atheists in who can do a better job at helping the homeless.

        Christians are proud, and should be, at the MOTIVE to save lives of the homeless…eternally. That’s love.

        Atheists are proud at the motive to tell the homeless that they have no hope and that they should be offended at Christians peddling God. And that’s supposed to be love?

        Love is not a competition.

        Ed Chapman

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  6. Pingback: Guest Post: The Closet Atheist Writes on their Personal Journey into Atheism | Wondering Eagle

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