Remembering Thomas Jefferson’s Letter to the Danbury Baptists in January of 1802

The 215th anniversary of Thomas Jefferson’s letter to the Danbury Baptists spurs this quick post. This explores some of the history of Thomas Jefferson and how this letter came about. Plus also why the separation of church and state is necessary and good for both the state and the church.

“I think that this is the most extraordinary collection of talent, of human knowledge, that has ever been gathered together at the White House, with the possible exception of when Thomas Jefferson dined alone.”

John F Kennedy honors the Nobel Prize Winners in April of 1962

“Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should “make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.”

Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists on January 1, 1802.

Well, then,” Jesus said, “give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar, and give to God what belongs to God.”

Mark 12:17 NLT

thomas_jefferson_by_rembrandt_peale_1800

Thomas Jefferson in 1800. Source is Wikipedia.

On January 1, 1802 Thomas Jefferson received a unique gift from his Baptist admirers in New England. That gift was a 1,200 lbs. wheel of cheese with a note that said, “The Greatest Cheese in America for the Greatest Man in America.” The question to be asked is why did Jefferson receive this gift from his Baptist admirers? Could it be due to the effects of Puritan theology and congregationalism in New England? Could this be due to the fact that the Baptists were a minority and often dissenters in New England? I am thinking a loud and asking these questions as well. Thomas Jefferson then sat down later that day and wrote the below note to the Danbury Baptists. this note would be significant in the history of the United States because Thomas Jefferson re-affirmed the role of separation of church and state, and the rights of religious minorities to practice their faith in freedom. In this case it was the Danbury Baptists.


 

To messers. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should “make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

Th Jefferson
Jan. 1. 1802.

Thomas Jefferson I believe is one of the most gifted men in American history. Where would the United States be without his legacy today? Thomas Jefferson was the author of the Declaration of Independence. His magnificent words which challenged the British. Ponder the opening of the Declaration of Independence. “When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. ” His words were an eloquent form of poetry. We forget today the incredible risks the signers of the Declaration of Independence took. We look back knowing how the American Revolution turned out. At the time there were no guarantees as to how the American Revolution would go. After all 13 colonies were in the process of standing up to the mightiest power on the globe at the time. Had the American Revolution failed all the signers of the Declaration of Independence would have been executed. Stop and consider the uprising from the eyes of the British. It was treason, and a civil war.  After the formation of the United States first by the failed Articles of Confederation and then the Constitution Thomas Jefferson was a busy men. He served as governor of Virginia in 1779 and 1780. He later served in Congress, as Minister of France, and then Secretary of State. In 1796 Thomas Jefferson lost the electoral college to John Adams and served as Vice President. In 1800 the national election was between Thomas Jefferson of the Democratic-Republicans and John Adams of the Federalist Party. The election was decided by the House of Representatives in 1801. Thomas Jefferson served as the third President of the United States.

 

Why Separation of Church and State is Necessary

Thomas Jefferson was a strong advocate of separation of church and state. Don’t believe that crap that David Barton writes. He wrote and revealed his feelings in his letter to the Danbury Baptists. I want to start out 2017 by remembering that letter that Thomas Jefferson eloquently penned. In 2017 there are many articles and topics in atheism and secular humanism that I want to write about and pursue. But I first want to explain, as a Christian, why I believe in the separation of church and state. In this prior post I explained why the United States is not a Christian nation. By mixing faith and politics what is created is something far toxic and destructive. One only has to look at the secularization of Europe which is a long lasting result of mixing church and state. Church and state are not designed to be together, instead they work best when separate. The government works exceptionally well when its not fighting or captured by differing theological movements. Theocracies can be dictatorships, after all one only has to look at John Calvin’s Geneva or some of the Islamic countries today.   The government works best secular when it can focus on the national duty of preserving, protecting and defending the country. A secular government can actually guarantee all religions freedom of worship and expression. That protects all people who desire to worship in freedom. One only has to look at the problems the Puritans created in New England. Is it not ironic that they fled religious oppression only to then duplicate it?

In contrast the church also functions best when it is outside the realm of government. The church can do what it does best  when it is free to do what it is designed to do. It can worship freely, serve the poor, help the sick, and reach out to those spiritually looking.  One of the problems of mixing church and state go back to Constantine I would suggest. I believe that is the first time in history where the state and the Christian church were combined into a single entity. If I am mistaken please correct me below. The church could do amazing things if it wasn’t consumed by trying to influence government through political means. Think of all the people who can be helped and nursed by the church alone. When the church is mixed with the state the church takes a hit and the Gospel suffers. This is another aspect that people do not contemplate.

This is the first secular post that I am writing today, but its going to be one of many. I decided to do this after reading this post from Americans United for the Separation of Church and State. I’ve seen a few articles and issues in the atheist world that I already have in draft form and need to sit down and write. But I wanted to call my camp out and challenge them to embrace the separation of church and state, as that would be the best for the church. For those of you who feel that the church must get involved in politics I have these questions to ask you. Is there a covenant between the United States and God like there was between Israel and God? Did Jesus suffer and die at Calvary so that one party could control the Executive Mansion at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue or control the Supreme Court?  If you say yes, they I am going to challenge you to read your Bible. I would also suggest that a new pseudo-national state religion has been created and as Paul would say in Galatians, you are following another Gospel. One can be a conservative Christian and support church and state separation. Its time for those who believe as such to speak up and raise their voice. To the atheist and secular crowd I want to re-affirm that there are many topics to indeed tackle over the upcoming year. If you hear of any please feel free to shoot me a note. As always I love you guys and I welcome differing feedback below.

 

15 thoughts on “Remembering Thomas Jefferson’s Letter to the Danbury Baptists in January of 1802

  1. The one problem that I have with this…the problem…the word “religion” does not mean the same thing as it did back then, and it was excusive for the word Christians only at that time. Baptists was a religion, for example, as was Puritists. In other words, the word, “religion” was confined to differing denominational beliefs within Christianity. To make it in simpler terms, the words “religion” and “denomination” was used synonomously. Today, we use the word “religion” pretty loosley, but back then…not so.

    What not many “religious” folks discuss, is that Thomas Jefferson attended “Christian” church services. Do you know where? In a government building…in the US House of Representatives, sometimes in the US Supreme Court. Yes, the guy that said something about a wall attended Christian church services in a state building.

    Why did he do that? Because different “religions” were being taught. Or, should I clarify that word, “religion”? In other words, differing Christian denominations were begin taught, so as not to choose just one religion…uh, er, denomination.

    What some “religions” don’t want to discuss, is that Thomas Jefferson was a Christian, and so was Ben Franklin. They all want to think that they were deists. But, dig deep, and I do mean deep, you will find that Ben Franklin actually wrote somewhere to someone stating that there were no atheists in America. Come to think of it, there were no Budhists or Shintoists, or Scientologists here either. Just Christians.

    Now, to promote that religion must not be in state, that is, to me, a terrible thing to say, given this:

    George Washington…First President…Official History about God in politics…the Christian God, by the way:

    President George Washington, on April 30, 1789, delivered his famous Inaugural Address to both Houses of Congress. He had just taken the oath of office on the balcony of Federal Hall in New York City, with his hand upon a Bible opened to Deuteronomy, Chapter 28:

    Such being the impressions under which I have, in obedience to the public summons, repaired to the present station, it would be peculiarly improper to omit, in this first official act, my fervent supplications to that Almighty Being who rules over the universe, who presides in the councils of nations and whose providential aides can supply every human defect; that His benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of the United States a government instituted by themselves for these essential purposes; and may enable every instrument employed in its administration to execute with success, the functions allotted to his charge.

    In tendering this homage to the Great Author of every public and private good, I assure myself that it expresses your sentiments not less than my own; nor those of my fellow citizens at large, less than either.

    No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the Invisible Hand which conducts the affairs of men more than the people of the United States. Every step by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation seems to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency.

    And in the important revolution just accomplished, in the system of their United government, the tranquil deliberations and voluntary consent of so many distinct communities, from which the event has resulted, can not be compared with the means by which most governments have been established, without some return of pious gratitude, along with an humble anticipation of the future blessings which the past seem to presage …

    We ought to be no less persuaded that the propitious smiles of Heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right which Heaven itself has ordained; and since the preservation of the sacred fire of liberty and the destiny of the republican model of government are justly considered as deeply, perhaps finally, staked on the experiment…

    President George Washington, on October 3, 1789, from the City of New York, proclaimed a National Day of Thanksgiving:

    Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor…

    Now, therefore, I do recommend and assign Thursday, the twenty-sixth day of November next, to be devoted by the people of these Unites States…that we then may all unite unto him our sincere and humble thanks for His kind care and protection of the people of this country previous to their becoming a nation; for the signal and manifold mercies and the favorable interpositions of His providence in the course and conclusion of the late war; for the great degree of tranquility, union, and plenty which we have since enjoyed; for the peaceable and rational manner in which we have been enabled to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national one now lately instituted; for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed…

    And also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations, and beseech Him to pardon our national and other transgressions…to promote the knowledge and practice of the true religion and virtue…

    Given under my hand, at the City of New York, the 3rd of October, A.D. 1789.

    ———————————–

    There is many many many references that can be found that God is in our American Politics…IF, the people allow it.

    Conclusion:
    Thomas Jefferson never meant for God to be out of politics, but he meant for Baptists to worship God without Government interfering.

    The Baptists are WE THE PEOPLE, and they can tell the government what to do. The government, on the other hand, cannot tell the Baptists what to do. And that, is my main beef with your homage to Thomas Jefferson.

    Ben Franklin said:
    …God governs in the affairs of men…

    Obviously, Ben Franklin never meant for God to be out of politics, either, knowing that God is involved.

    In those days, one could not separate morality from religion (uh, Christianity). Morality and Religion are prominent words in our founding fathers documents concerning our own government. You should not separate Christianity from our government, nor promote that this was the vision of Thomas Jefferson, because it’s just not true.

    Ed Chapman

    Like

  2. John Adams:

    “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”

    =============================

    Ben Franklin:

    Benjamin Franklin wrote Information to Those Who Would Remove to America, detailing the many perks of residing under American law:

    ——–
    “Hence bad examples to youth are more rare in America, which must be a comfortable consideration to parents. To this may be truly added, that serious religion, under its various denominations, is not only tolerated, but respected and practised.”

    “Atheism is unknown there; Infidelity rare and secret; so that persons may live to a great age in that country without having their piety shocked by meeting with either an Atheist or an Infidel. And the Divine Being seems to have manifested his approbation of the mutual forbearance and kindness with which the different sects treat each other; by the remarkable prosperity with which he has been pleased to favor the whole country.”
    ————

    Contrary to popular belief, Ben Franklin was not a deist. He was a Christian, who didn’t like being a Presbyterian. He didn’t like going to church because his church was so legalistic about being Presbyterians that they missed the point of living a virtuous life as a Christian. In other words, the following is a quote from Ben Franklin about his own Presbyterian preacher:

    “his discourses were chiefly either polemic arguments, or explications of the peculiar doctrines ***of our sect***, and were all to me very dry, uninteresting, and unedifying, since not a single moral principle was inculcated or enforced, their aim seeming to be rather to make us Presbyterians than good citizens.”
    ———————

    We all know that Catholics are more Catholic than they are Christian, due to all the ritualistic aspects of it. Rituals.

    Ben Franklin also was not sure of the deity of Jesus. Why? Due to the Church of England teaching it. He didn’t trust the Church of England.

    What is my point in saying all of this:

    None of our founding fathers wanted a secular government, as you promote here. There were no atheists in our founding that would corrupt our nation’s VIRTUE, and that word meant a lot back then. What were the laws about sodomy back then, in Thomas Jefferson’s day? Gay rights, huh? Okee Dokey then.

    Again, quoting John Adams:
    “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”

    Oh, and that word “religion” was exclusive of Christianity only…not Islam, not Buddhism, or any other ism’s. Just Christianity. Our founding fathers came from escaping the Church of England, not the temples or shrines of China, Thailand, or Japan, nor the mosques of Tripoli, Saudi Arabia, or Mesopotamia.

    Again, the word “religion” only pertained to differing Christian denominational beliefs.

    Our founding fathers expected God to be in public schools, with absolutely no interferrance from the government to remove God. But, over time, the word “religion” began to be used loosley, not as intended by our founding fathers.

    Promoting the atheist agenda, to include atheist propaganda, thereby diminishing the need for God in our government…that is not a virtuous thing to do, given the quote of John Adams. Pay attention to the word “ONLY” in his quote. According to John Adams, our constitution was NOT made for the atheist.

    Ed Chapman

    Like

    • Ed-

      I am only going to respond to one of your comments. First before you start to quote David Barton and Wallbuilders I am going to ask you to spend a week reading what Warren Throckmorton has written
      about David Barton. That man is a fraud, and has deep issues. Him teaching American History is like making Jeffrey Dahmer have a cooking show after the situation of cannibalism in Milwaukee. There are many fraught problems
      with Barton…he has ethics concerns, is not trained, etc.. He is a master of propaganda which is all he cranks out. But word to the wise if you are going to be into David Barton’s work I would use it as toilet paper only.

      That letter I pulled from the Library of Congress achieves. We are not a Christian nation, we never have been. There have been Christians in government but that is the extent of it. When I look at this its form the perspective of a guy with a graduate degree in American History who has done research in the achieves. Many Christians manipulate history and people like Thomas Jefferson for their own means. Thomas Jefferson would be at odds with many parts of Christendom today, just look at his Bible that he created and see how that came about.

      The problem with what many fundamentalists espouse is that religious freedom should only apply to them and not one else. That is faulty logic. People should have the right to believe or NOT believe.

      Liked by 1 person

      • OK, so let me straighten something out to you…I am NOT a fundamentalist. Are we clear? Calvinists are fundamentalists.

        I do not trust any word of an atheist in regards to teaching me anything about my own beliefs in Christianity. Let’s be clear about that. So, I do not listen to the advice of Warren Throckmorton.

        Did the Apostle Paul consult atheists? Come on man…wake up.

        Now, I notice that you have an issue with WallBuilders. Go ahead, have a problem if you want. He’s right, because what he states can be backed up with tons of other references.

        Now, in regards to you telling me that we are not a Christian nation, based on a document, the Treaty of Tripoli, that is patently false.

        You never even bothered to find out WHY that statement was put in a document. There is a WHY.

        1. Why was it NECESSARY FOR ANY COUNTRY to indicate their countries beliefs or nonbeliefs? IS THAT PROPER NORMAL PROTOCOL?

        2. What were the beliefs of the people of Tripoli?

        3. Did the people of Tripoli have a problem with Christians?

        4. What did the people of Tripoli normally do to Christians on US SHIPS?

        I could go on and on and on about things.

        You are incorrect in your assessment that we are not a Christian Nation, because we were indeed founded on that belief system. You can deny it all you want, but there was absolutely no atheists in our founding.

        I can quote many things that George Washington said, and because you ASSUME that it is coming from WallBuilders, you think that what I quoted is patently false? Don’t be so naive that your atheist buddies are truth tellers.

        Ed Chapman

        Like

      • Wondering Eagle,

        If I may, I would love for you to attend a “Celebrate Recovery” in your local area. I’d like to introduce you to NORMAL Christians. I am non-denomination.

        But, just so you know, I am definately not on the liberal side of Christianity, meaning that I am totally against gay marriage…why? Plant a seed of corruption, and it multiplies. Is that seed godly? No.

        But, I am also not a “fundamentalist”. I make my own decisions by my own conscience BASED on the bible. BUT…I have my own problems, and issues, and I attend Celebrate Recovery every Wednesday night at 7:00 PM.

        I’m not going to tell you about “Celebrate Recovery”, but I know that there is AT LEAST one or even many more in your local area. You can easily look it up on the internet, phone book, or pretty much any church can also direct you to where one is.

        This is an extremely sincere invitation. You will love it, because the people are REAL…not the fake and phony smiles. These are people who have BEEN THERE, DONE THAT, still struggling thru it, and sharing it with others who have been there, done that, and those who have been there done that are wonderful people.

        Change that “Wondering” to “Wonderful” and see what happens. Try Celebrate Recovery. I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

        You should have influence to the atheist. Atheists should not be an influence to you. That does not mean that I am advocating for you to disassociate from them. And, yes, they have the right to believe or not believe.

        BUT, they are not religious, so religious freedom does not apply to non-religious people. The government has no right to tell the religous how to worship. And that includes telling a religious person to go against their religious beliefs of issuing a gay marriage certificate. But, they forced her to do it, against her own conscious. Yes, Thomas Jefferson would be appauled at the Supreme Court, based on his letter to the Baptists telling them about a wall.

        What do the atheists ultimately want? NO GOD ANYWHERE. That’s the seed planted. Are you sure you wish to participate in that goal? Have you seen what they call Christians on the blogs? And you wish to endorse that?

        Ed Chapman

        Like

  3. John Adams in a speech to the military in 1798 warned his fellow countrymen stating, “We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion . . . Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” John Adams is a signer of the Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights and our second President.

    Benjamin Rush, Signer of the Declaration of Independence said. “[T]he only foundation for a useful education in a republic is to be aid in religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments. Without religion, I believe that learning does real mischief to the morals and principles of mankind.”

    Noah Webster, author of the first American Speller and the first Dictionary said, “[T]he Christian religion, in its purity, is the basis, or rather the source of all genuine freedom in government. . . . and I am persuaded that no civil government of a republican form can exist and be durable in which the principles of that religion have not a controlling influence.”

    Gouverneur Morris, Penman and Signer of the Constitution. “[F]or avoiding the extremes of despotism or anarchy . . . the only ground of hope must be on the morals of the people. I believe that religion is the only solid base of morals and that morals are the only possible support of free governments. [T]herefore education should teach the precepts of religion and the duties of man towards God.”

    Fisher Ames author of the final wording for the First Amendment wrote, “[Why] should not the Bible regain the place it once held as a school book? Its morals are pure, its examples captivating and noble. The reverence for the Sacred Book that is thus early impressed lasts long; and probably if not impressed in infancy, never takes firm hold of the mind.”

    John Jay, Original Chief-Justice of the U. S. Supreme Court , “The Bible is the best of all books, for it is the word of God and teaches us the way to be happy in this world and in the next. Continue therefore to read it and to regulate your life by its precepts.”

    James Wilson, Signer of the Constitution; U. S. Supreme Court Justice, “Human law must rest its authority ultimately upon the authority of that law which is divine. . . . Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants. Indeed, these two sciences run into each other.”

    Noah Webster, author of the first American Speller and the first Dictionary stated, “The moral principles and precepts contained in the scriptures ought to form the basis of all our civil constitutions and laws. . . All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery, and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible.”

    Robert Winthrop, Speaker of the U. S. House, “Men, in a word, must necessarily be controlled either by a power within them or by a power without them; either by the Word of God or by the strong arm of man; either by the Bible or by the bayonet.”

    George Washington, General of the Revolutionary Army, president of the Constitutional Convention, First President of the United States of America, Father of our nation, ” Religion and morality are the essential pillars of civil society.”

    Benjamin Franklin, Signer of the Declaration of Independence “[O]nly a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters.”

    “Whereas true religion and good morals are the only solid foundations of public liberty and happiness . . . it is hereby earnestly recommended to the several States to take the most effectual measures for the encouragement thereof.” Continental Congress, 1778

    Note that the above quotes are but a small sample of hundreds of quotes the Founding Fathers made in regards to the importance of a religious and moral people in a successful Republican Democracy.

    In our young nation, the Bible was used as a text book for the purpose of teaching children moral principles to live by. As time went on, the Bible was gradually replaced by other text books such as Noah Webster’s Primer. Webster’s Primer taught children to spell but was also filled with moral Bible verses. In the front of his Primer was his picture with the inscription, “Who taught millions to read but not one to sin.”

    This is the exact opposite of the school curriculum today. The courts in this country have revised the First Amendment, thus erecting a wall of atheism around every public school in America, where in God is not allowed to be mentioned. This is not the same wall that Thomas Jefferson envisioned.

    The above is quoted from http://www.free2pray.info/5founderquotes.html

    Another web site that is interesting: http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=8755

    Pay close attention to both Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson, and click on the bibliography references, too.

    “It is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue.”

    – John Adams

    Also, the Library of Congress has many pieces of evidence in regards to Christianity in our government. It shows that the bottom line was that “religion” pertained only to the Christian, and that “differing” religions pertained only to differing Christian denominational beliefs. No other belief system was ever a consideration. Now, translate that to the first amendment, and translate that to the no “religious” litmus test to be President.

    They never meant for a Muslim, for example, to be President, because there are no Christian principals in Islam.

    Ed Chapman

    Like

    • Hello Ed Chapman, can I ask a clarifying question to make sure I understand the gist of a point you are making above? To sum up, are you saying the freedom of religion was exclusively for Christianity, not other faiths or non faith citizens? Just want to be sure so I am sure of understanding your position. Thanks!

      Like

      • Hi blue,
        In a nutshell, yes. In our founding, there was no other religion being discussed by anyone. And remember, Thomas Jefferson did indeed attend Christian church services in the US House of Representatives, and it was various religions (Christian denominations) being taught. Our founders escaped the Church of England, and none of them discussed Hindu, for example. In our declaration of independence, they used the words, “Self Evident”. By who? By all citizens. Note the words that George Washington used: “No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the Invisible Hand which conducts the affairs of men more than the people of the United States.”. Whenever the word, “God” was used, it was not in the generic sense, it was in the Christian sense. There was no teaching of any other God in those days, by anyone. Some, however, wish to think that Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson were deists. That would mean a generic god, if they were in fact deists. But how can that be, since they had come from the Church of England? NO ONE trusted the Church of England, so people like Ben Franklin had doubts about the divinity of Jesus. Does that make him a deist? He was a Presbyterian. He didn’t like to go to church, cuz it was boring. When I was a kid, it was boring, too. You would see many men fall asleep, snoring durin service. So, in short, yes, that is my position. Hindus were not here yet. Neither were atheists.

        Like

      • Hey Blue,

        One more thing about our history. There was once a day that when you joined the US Military, you were given a bible. There was once a day that when you got arrested in the US, you were given a bible. It was not something that one had to request. It was given to you. And, there was once a day that when you stayed in a Hotel/Motel in the US, you would find a Bible. Hospital stay, a bible.

        That is just four examples of Bible issue to the American public.

        I was a child when we, in PUBLIC SCHOOL, which is known as the “STATE” due to federal funding, had Christmas plays, and would have an assembly with all the parents, and we, as students in the STATE school, sung Christmas songs about JESUS. Hark the Harold Angels Sing, and many many more about Jesus.

        When Red Skelton was a small boy, he was able to say prayer in school.

        NOW, all of a sudden in the later part of the 20th century, into the 21st century, those things is unconstitutional?

        There is no doubt in my mind that our founding fathers wanted Christianity to flourish in America.

        Ed Chapman

        Like

  4. The courts removed Bible reading (teaching moral values), School Prayer and the Ten Commandments from our schools. The claim is made by the ACLU that these violate the Constitution, but then why did the founding fathers have, Bible reading, School Prayer and the Ten Commandments in their schools? Did they not understand their own Constitution?

    Like

    • Ed, here is why I write about atheism. Its my contention that many evangelicals are the problem. Atheists are very misunderstood, misinterpreted and have a different
      way of thought. They are intellectual, value science and logic; and believe in asking hard questions. I love the fact that atheists will ask difficult questions that many Christians
      won’t go near. My faith crisis really galvanized me and I look at the atheist community in a very different light. They are people committed to truth and reason. They, like you and me, are on their
      own journey. I am horrified as to how many Christians have treated atheists. They have been denied respect, decency, courtesy, warmth, and so much more. If given the option of spending a day with
      Franklin Graham or James Dobson over someone from the Center for Inquiry or Secular Student Alliance hands down it wouldn’t even be a contest, I would chill with the atheists and grab a beer. There are not
      many good blogs out there that explore atheism, and I love reading the material and keeping up with it. That’s why I write about it.

      Like

      • Wondering Eagle,

        Hey, thanks for your reply. I’ve been reading your struggles and I am sorry for the things that have happened to you, in the name of Christianity.

        I want to start this by stating that I disagree with the usage of the verbage “evangelical”. When I was a kid, we were Christians, plain and simple.

        To me, the word, “evangelical”, even tho I know the proper definition of the word, leaves a bad taste in my mouth, because Calvinists use that word. I’m an enemy to the Calvinist doctrine to the fullest, and I don’t care if it’s NEO-Cal, or easy going Cal, because it’s all abusive in it’s doctrines.

        I noticed this morning, that you wrote something about your past Catholic issues. I haven’t had a chance to read up on it, but I am also opposed to anything Catholic, as you may have noticed by my comment regarding Catholics and Rituals. I whole heartedly disagree with their interpretation of both Matthew 16 that they interpret Peter as Rock, and Matthew 18 that they interpret that only a priest can forgive sin.

        I also disagree with Calvinists that use Matthew 18 as an internal church discipline process. It’s not a disciplinary process whatsoever.

        Now, in regards to atheists, YOU as a Christian has a DUTY to proclaim Jesus to them, but if your education about Jesus is null, then sure, their so-called TRUTH (When Jesus said that HE is THE Truth) is going to fascinate you.

        I will leave you with this (forgive the following caps) for the atheist:

        Why reason why when there is no reason why?

        We Christians have a reason. Atheists are reasoning for no reason, because nothing exists when you die. Did you read the book of Acts on how the Apostle Paul was discussing Christianity to a POLITICAL person?

        I love studying cults, because I love to find out why people believe in what they believe. You have to have a solid basis for why you believe…Not just because a preacher tells you to.

        My only suggestion is for you to get a Strong’s Concordance, hardback, pen, college ruled paper, and read the Bible 5 times in a row.

        Read it once as a novel.
        Read it once as a law book.
        Read it once as a novel again
        Read it once as a personal letter from Jesus
        Read it once as a novel again.

        That way, all of it is in your soul.

        Then, and only then can you ask questions, to yourself, and your soul will say, “I’ve read that somewhere before…where did I read that?” Then if you can’t remember, begin again at Genesis 1:1 until you find it. Everytime you do that, one little tidbit more will engrain your soul.

        At the minimum, Christians believe in life after death. Christians believe in the death of Christ Jesus. Christians believe in the resurrection of Jesus (All of that is in 1 Corinthians Chapter 15).

        What’s an atheist going to teach you about life after death? Nothing. Nothingness. I don’t care how smart that they think that they are…when they die, they will never see their loved ones again, according to their own beliefs, and, also based on the Bible if they REJECT Jesus.

        Ignorant people are judged based on their conscience…No one needs to be told to not steal, for example, because that is natural guilty…God’s laws written on the heart. Everyone has that, so yes, atheists have great morality. But morality does not get you to heaven.

        We, as Christians must “GIVE AN ACCOUNT”. We have a responsibility. Not as “evangelicals”, but as Chrisitans. Being a Christian is so simple. Being “religious” is not what Jesus wanted from us. That’s why Calvinism creates so many victims of spiritual abuse.

        As you can tell, this is the 2nd post you made in regards politics/religion, and both times, I chimed up. I’ve heard your side far too long from the atheists. They are the ones who promote taking God out of government. Please do not join their endeavors. That is just so wrong.

        Respectfully,

        Ed Chapman

        Liked by 1 person

  5. Wondering Eagle,

    Our Leaders in America should be down on their knees seeking the Christian God’s (Jesus) face in their decision making. That is where religion should be in our politics, with no such thing as what you promote in your progressive interpretation of separation of church and state.

    You say that it is toxic. I disagree so much with that.

    There is no doubt in my mind that our founding fathers, leaders, presidents, etc. from our founding wanted Christianity to flourish in America.

    Ed Chapman

    Like

Comments are closed.