The United States is Not a Christian Nation, Lets Address This False Claim; Plus Bill Maher on Evangelical Christians and Hypocrisy

This post explores why the United States is not a Christian nation. This also looks at why there is no covenant between God and the United States, and why Paul did not desire to change Rome through political means. Next why we Christians need to stop engaging in party politics permanently. Also this looks at the latest commentary by Bill Maher on evangelical Christians and hypocrisy. Is it a coincidence that we have gone from Mark Driscoll’s pussified nation to Donald Trumps’ grab them by the pussy culture? This post is the closest I will look at Christians and politics, and its created in part due to an event at McLean Presbyterian Church this Friday night.


“I think every good Christian ought to kick Falwell right in the ass.”

Barry Goldwater

“The glory of Christianity is to conquer by forgiveness.”

William Blake

And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

1 Corinthians 13:13 NKJV


Lincoln Memorial at night




Screenshots of the Dr. Os Guinness event at McLean Presbyterian Church.


I have been thinking of doing this post for a while now, and what triggers this post is an event this Friday at McLean Presbyterian Church here in the D.C. area. Dr. Os Guinness is going to speak about how Christians should respond to culture. After all in the email sent by the C.S. Lewis Institute Staff it says that with a upcoming Trump Administration now is a time to reflect on the role Christians should play in the days to come. I have written previously about McLean Presbyterian Church, in “How to Respond to a Faith Crisis? An Agnostic Tries the Church and Learns the Church Cannot Help.” In that post I talk about an agnostic showing up and a church that commits an epic fail in how to engage an outsider. But having written that there are a number of things that need to be stated, because the simple fact is that we are not a Christian nation. Its bad theology, its hurting the faith, its keeping people from the Christian faith, and its hurting people in general.


There is No Covenant Between God and the United States

Lets clear something up and come out and state it. The United States is not a Christian nation. The Constitution and the Declaration of Independence state nothing about the Christian heritage or role God plays in the United States. As a Christian we can say that there was a covenant between God and Israel, as that is in scripture I believe. But there is nothing in the Bible that talks about a covenant between God and the United States. After all when the Bible was created the United States did not even exist. Do a lot of Christians realize how arrogant and pompous they are when they act and believe as if there is such a covenant? So God cares about the United States…but not India? God cares about the United States but not Kenya, Zimbabwe, or Nigeria?  God cares for the United States but not Kazakhstan? This is just bad theology and it amazes me that a large number of people have bought into this. You know what it means? It quite clearly states that many Christians do not know their Bible.


Did Paul Try and Change Rome?

Here is another point of contention that needs to be claimed. One of the reasons why I struggle with the Washington, D.C. area is that it attracts a lot of interesting and unique personalities. But this is especially true in the church. Here it attracts people who want to engage the government and for many in some form the culture wars. I have never understood why so many Christians act like this. After all when Paul traveled to Rome did Paul seek to change the Roman political system? Did Paul engage in party politics and form organizations to lobby for his values? Or did Paul work within the system and submit to it and live a life that resulted in love and bold concern and compassion?  After all didn’t Paul pray for those around him? Didn’t Paul stay near his prison cell after an earthquake so his guard would not have to commit suicide? Paul didn’t set out to change the Roman political system, yet what do we see today? We see many Christians who engage in this. They feel like they have to engage in the political system to try and change the government. Do many of these people have faith? If so, is it in God or political power? Its absolutely disgusting that this happens.


Why Christians Need to Permanently Disengage From Party Politics

Christians choosing to engage in party politics is causing incredible harm. Quite simply it needs to stop. You can not mix politics and faith and not create something toxic. The message of the Christian faith is simple….we are broken, sinful and we need God for redemption. The Christian faith should not be about engaging in politics, using the Bible as a weapon, or playing to the fears of others. Christians should be known for their love. Philip Yancey has written before about the lust for power that Christians engage in, and Phil is quite right. He talks about how politics and faith corrupts both the faith, the church and also the state. There is a reason why Europe is so secular today. There was a time when the state was married to the church and that created profound problems. The backlash that created in time is still being felt today.

But there are additional ramifications. It keeps people from the Christian faith. It creates unnecessary problems and division. It builds walls that otherwise would not exist. Its turns people off and it creates profound harm. The engagement in politics I would also suggest is sinful. Its a modern form of idolatry. You can’t serve two masters which is exactly what many Christians are doing.


Bill Maher on Evangelical Christians

Recently Bill Maher had a video about evangelicals and politics. This post is the closest I am going to get to when it comes to politics. Because simply I have no desire to open that can of worms here. I have the video above and Maher spoke about evangelicals in the context of the election. After all he said that the election revealed the hypocrisy of evangelical Christians. This is so true…after all for years many evangelicals spoke about character. Character. Character and character. So after all these years of character what did many evangelicals do? They decided to throw their support behind a man who boasted of grabbing women by the pussy. In the end it was the pussy grabber who they supported. Its rich when you consider that we had Mark Driscoll’s rants about a pussified nation, and have since then had to contend with evangelicals supporting a pussy grabber. Is there a link? Is evangelical Christian culture flawed in that one sense? Does this also help explain why Mark Driscoll is up and running again in Phoenix after his profane teaching in Seattle? So here is the situation….at McLean Presbyterian Church this Friday many Christians who likely voted for a pussy grabber are going to attend and listen about how they can impact culture. Is that how Christians can sleep at night? Create feel good programs and lectures that allow them to feel like dutiful Christians? Meanwhile Jesus is weeping over this kind of action in the church. Bill Maher correctly points out evangelicals being hypercritical. We should start out by admitting the that we are wrong to have married politics. We should renounce that we have engaged.


What Should Christians Do?

One of the things I love about this blog is that I love the people I get to interact with on a regular basis. I get to exchange ideas with people all across the board, from those who have been abused in a church setting to those who will never go to a church who are outside the faith. I love them all…my hope is that this post will give organizations like McLean Presbyterian and other churches an opportunity to self reflect on why they exist and consider things from a new perspective. After all according to Warren Throckmorton 81% of evangelicals who will show up at McLean Presbyterian this Friday will have in all likelihood supported a pussy grabber a few days beforehand. For those outside the Christian faith can I say that I am sorry for their behavior. I am sorry for this representation of faith.

So what should Christians do? How should they engage and move forward? Its simple live a life of unconditional love with no strings attached.

What does that mean?

It means loving the atheist and caring for them with no strings attached. It means that you love the annoying cube neighbor who keeps cooking fish in the office microwave that is revolting to you. It means that you befriend the Muslim and hang out with that person. It means visiting your neighbor who is in the hospital and helping them out when they need help. It means helping an older person with grocery shopping from time to time. Its the simple and smallest things that scream the loudest. Can you imagine if this is what Christians were known for? Would I be embarrassed? After all I am more to the edge of the movement anyhow. This will be my only and final post on this topic. Thanks guys and I love you.


29 thoughts on “The United States is Not a Christian Nation, Lets Address This False Claim; Plus Bill Maher on Evangelical Christians and Hypocrisy

  1. Hi Eagle,

    I’d have to say that I partly agree with you, and partly disagree with you on this one. I agree that the US is a secular nation and that the Church should not force her views on a secular government. Yes, I am a Christian and did vote for Trump; and no, I am not happy about the things he has done wrong. But, the way I would put it, is that it’s more complicated than that.

    Yes, ultimately, the Lord’s Kingdom is not of this world. True. But while I am a Christian, I am also a conservative with libertarian leanings by standards of secular culture. The reason I voted for Trump was not to hurt people or force my views on others, but to send the message that I believe that a democratic society should fairly represent all members of that society: Christians, atheists, people of other faiths, conservatives and liberal Progressives included. I voted for Trump because liberal Progressives have not been fair to conservatives in this country. Otherwise, I would have likely voted for a third-party candidate, if at all, since I am aware of the Clintons’ corruption as well.

    Obviously, I did not vote for Trump because I am a Christian. I voted for Trump, because some conservatives are not Christians. Unless they come to Christ, this world is all they will ever have. I felt it was wrong for no one to stand up and represent them. If nothing else, I believe in taking turns honoring different groups of people, which is why I respected our country’s election of Barack Obama, even though I don’t respect him as a person. (I don’t respect him, because he has not demonstrated to me that he actually respects, listens to, works with and compromises with people who disagree with him. I do have some respect for his wife, though, even with me being a conservative.)

    But, here’s more food for thought: I don’t view politics as evil or as a form of hatred. I view politics as a matter of working together with other people. I know that Trump and his supporters are apt to be as unfair as liberal Progressives; but conservatives at least try to listen to fellow conservatives. So, in that context, I can work to challenge them to show more respect and consideration to our opponents than they have shown us — and to spend more time listening to those who disagree with us, in the hopes of working toward bipartisan compromise over time. I have tried talking to liberal Progressives in the past. Most of them belittle me, lecture to me, and refuse to compromise with me because they are often demanding of their own way, even as it ends up imposed on others who don’t agree. There are some exceptions, but I have found this to be the case most of the time.

    Eagle, if you look at Leviticus 19:18 — the verse about loving one’s neighbor as oneself — you might want to take a look at some of the verses preceding that verse. Leviticus 19:17 reads that we should rebuke our neighbor frankly, rather than resort to hatred. I voted in my rebuke by voting for Trump, as my way of saying, “conservative lives matter as much as anyone else’s.”

    That is why I voted for Trump. I agree with you that he lacks integrity. But, I’d say the same for the Clintons and many others. I do agree with you that Christian culture wars tend to be counter-productive toward representing Christ for who He is, though.

    All the best to you and your colleagues, my Brother, regardless as to y’all’s beliefs. = )

    Liked by 1 person

    • This is the only time I am going to get into this issue. Both sides have committed and said things that are wrong. That said it was white evangelicals who influenced this and I wonder what Bible are they reading? Jesus didn’t say “Go love thy neighbor and call your daughter a nice piece of ass.” There are other ways to be conservative that are lot more effective and not destructive. This is like saying you have an ant problem in the kitchen and using a blow torch to fix things.


      • If we were to elect a president based on sins, no one would be president. For all have sinned. Yes, George Washington sinned. What man in the world is not guilty of “If you have looked upon a woman to lust after her”? Who? No man is not guilty of that. And the reason that Jesus made that statement is so that no man can ever state that they are not guilty of adultery. He is showing that all men are guilty of adultery, so don’t even try to tell Jesus that you have never committed adultery. He also showed that every man is also guilty of murder when they hate their brother. And, at some point in all of our lives, we have all hated our brother. Besides, we tried the Sunday School Teacher already…Jimmy Carter. How did that work out?


      • Ed thanks for your comment but I am concerned about some of this right now. Yes that is true about murder but I think someone running for such an office should be held responsible for his behavior. If a teacher, physician, police officer or social worker would be held responsible for wrong doing…so should a candidate. On either side I should add.


      • WonderingEagle,

        In Trump’s case, I excuse his “entertainment” aspect, therefore, I find no basis to hold him responsible, as you do. He was not in the same business of ethics as a social worker, or the other proffesional fields that you mentioned. However, as a Business man, who signed checks, that is where I look.

        Let me reference something in the Bible…

        Luke 16:1-15

        That explains my sentiments exactly. Especially both verses 8, and 9, and 15.

        I find that you judge Trump unjustly, just as others do.



  2. Some fifteen years ago, an atheist blog (whose name I can’t remember) stated that the USA is both a Christian Nation and not a Christian Nation at the same time, and this was a source of its strength. Went like this:
    1) America is a Christian nation in that from the beginning there has been a general Christian consensus among the majority of its population when it comes to ethics, morals, and general beliefs.
    2) American is NOT a Christian Nation in that no single type of Christianity has been able to dominate, from either an official or de facto one-up position. No single One True Church was able to force itself as the One True Way.

    So here is the situation….at McLean Presbyterian Church this Friday many Christians who likely voted for a pussy grabber are going to attend and listen about how they can impact culture.

    Can’t help thinking “and in the backs of their minds, get to grab a little pussy themselves?” (After all, isn’t that a feature/bennie of “Woman, Submit!”?)

    Liked by 1 person

  3. “After all he said that the election revealed the hypocrisy of evangelical Christians.”
    I disagree with Maher on this one, he is painting with a broad brush and in this case he is using the exception as the rule. If anything I found most of the Evangelical community privately, and many leaders publicly, in much angst. That Maher tries to shoehorn into a diatribe against christians by using who they checked on the ballot, he is over-reaching. There were two very flawed candidates and the vote may have come down more on governing agenda than the character of the candidates this year more than ever.

    Had the evangelical community openly supported Trump during the primary when there was a plethora of alternatives, then he would have a point. If evangelicals were attacking victims or those who reported on Trumps malfeasance, Maher would have a point. They didn’t and thus Maher doesn’t have a point. Did the evangelical community enthusiastically support Trump or did they hold their nose and vote for him or vote against his opponent? I don’t know Maher’s track record, did he similarly denounce a prior president’s supporters after there was a credible accusation of rape?

    My wife found something that said it best for me
    Roses are red
    Violets are blue
    My candidate stinks
    and yours does too

    Liked by 1 person

      • I can’t abide him myself. I had a lot of respect for Hitchens, he had a sharp pen and used it without the usual partisan hypocrisy that seems so common in our divided world these days.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Bill Maher recently confessed to lying about Mitt Romney and George Bush in order to tell people to not vote for Trump. Lying then, but this time…

        Last I recall, Bill Maher was a comedian, which, to me, means that anything that he states is not to be taken literally, as it is supposed to be satire. But, for some reason, some believe comedians.

        I love when Jay Leno, another comedian, would take his camera to the streets and ask political questions to the average Joe…and the ignorant responses were classic. For the most part, he was showing that in general, people of America have no clue of politics. Show them a picture of Nancy Pelosi. They have no clue as to who she is, or what she does. Oh, and the college kids, they are a hoot…spring break, showing boobs, for the camera, while being offended by the word “pussy”????

        I’m not buying it.

        Ed Chapman

        Liked by 1 person

  4. There shouldn’t be any such thing as an “evangelical vote.” Every person should be deciding for themselves based on their own values, beliefs, and hopefully on reality, which candidate they will support. Every person who voted in this election had to decide which values were more important than others. This is where I’ve been left amazed at which values “evangelicals” elevated to importance and which they decided were unimportant. I agree there is an equal cognitive dissonance between the actual teachings of Jesus Christ and the persons of Driscoll and Trump.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Voting and religion need to be divorced. Its awful and painful and causes so many problems. What people can do out of hate is awful. We are witnesses to that right now. Faith should not be used as a weapon. And the people who use faith as a weapon need to be challenged. and called on it.


      • Well spoken Eagle. There’s a reason the Founding Fathers divorced religion from Earthly political endeavor. They were not all that far in time from the horrors generated when kings, potentates, and clergy get in cahoots.

        Liked by 1 person

  5. A few thoughts:

    Be careful about allowing the media or pundits to define evangelical. For many it includes any believer who doesn’t think politically like they do. I have no idea what it actually means anymore.

    The idea we are a Christian nation is rather amusing from a Puritan/Founders POV. The “Christianity” on which they came to these shores was a quasi state church Calvinist/Determinist mentality.

    The Founders were the opposite of determinism. They rejected a determinist God. John Adams excoriated the idea of a Determinist God.

    So when some talk about a “Christian” nation, I never know whose Christianity they are talking about. For some it seems to mean divine rights for a ruling class.


  6. I totally disagree about that this nation is not a Christian nation. George Washington would be rolling in his grave if he knew what so-called Christians would be saying about his own dedication of this nation to God. Read his words of that inauguration. It’s compelling that he dedicated this nation to God, for God, for and by the people of the United States of America, which shows that all Americans in those days agreed with his dedication, and therefore, in those days, this was indeed a Christian nation. I do believe that the notion of the Treaty of Tripoli changed people’s minds, for some odd reason. But then, you must ask several questions as to why a nations religious beliefs are in a treaty to begin with. Don’t you see that as pretty freaking odd that a nations religious beliefs are in a treaty? Why was it necessary for such a statement in a treaty? Who were the people of Tripoli? What did they believe? Did they have problems with Christians? Absolutely they did. That treaty was important to the US. What was the normal custom for the folks of Tripoli in regards to Christians on trading ships? Christians had to be SILENT in order to have peace for a treaty, as the shipping lanes were very important for America. So, there is a lot of misinformation going around in denying that our nation is a Christian nation. George Washington would disagree, regardless of John Adams statement in a treaty, for that statement is extremely disingenuous.

    Ed Chapman


  7. I am surprised you are not concerned about the immorality if the two tier justice system for the ruling elites the peasants don’t have. That is also an import from the days of kings. A different standard for the ruling establishment. More dangerous than pussy comments.


  8. Also, we, as Christians fall under the Abrahamic Covenant that God made with Abraham.

    2 Chronicles 7:14 (KJV)

    14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

    Are we not God’s people in Christianity?

    Romans 9:26
    And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

    Galatians 3:7
    Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

    There is two ways to read scripure…carnal, and spiritual. In other words, the carnal children of Abraham is the Jewish people, or should I say, the children of Jacob (Israel). But the spiritual children of Israel is explained in Romans 9:26.

    Proverbs 14:34
    Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people.

    and finally,

    Psalm 33:12
    Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.

    To say that this nation was not conceived in God, making this a Christian nation is not right. There were not atheists in the days of George Washington here in America. And, those who wish to state that Ben Franklin was a deist, that is also totally false. The only thing that Ben Franklin disagreed with was the notion that Jesus was God, and the only reason that he was unsure about that, is because that is what the untrusted Church of England taught.

    This nation began with Christians, albeit, many differing Christian denominational beliefs.

    And, that so-called letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote tot he Baptists, that letter was to comfort the Baptists in their freedoms, not to tell the Baptists to sit down and shut up. Christian’s were Presidents, not deists or athieists.

    The Father of the so-called separation of church and state attended Christian church services in the US House of Representatives. Church was in state. Sometimes, those services were in the Supreme Court. Why did Jefferson approve of this? Because there were differing Christian denominations being taught.

    The word “religion” in those days were in regards to differing Christian denominational doctrines, not diffeing beliefs of other gods, or no god at all. Today, we use the word “religion” in a much different way.

    Yes, George Washington would be rolling in his grave in regards to how this nation has turned away from God…especially from people professing to be Christians.

    God made that original covenant with Abraham, which encompasses we Christians, and therefore, the notion of covenants with Israel only is a disingenuous conclusion.

    Ed Chapman


  9. My point was that, at our Founding, Christianity was in the midst of being redefined from the typical Western Protestant thinking of the Puritans that included divine right of kings and prophets. They focused on the religious rulers part, of course. It’s one reason we all love the rebellion of Roger Williams and his “Bloudy Tenant” pamphlet.

    I am thankful our Founders were reading more Locke so they could see Calvin and even Catholicism for what they were. Of course, there have always been Calvinists but our Founders did not want his quasi state/religious system. The Constitution was an ideal. We had a lot of work to do after to make it reality for everyone.

    Never trust anyone who wants a New Jerusalem. And that includes those on the left who have their own version which also reeks of special rights and two tier justice– for some. Not all.

    Liked by 1 person

      • WonderingEagle,

        The problem with that belief, is that it is non-existent. The so-called wall of separation was in regards to the Government not interfering witht he freedoms of worshippers. However…

        There is no such thing as worshippers not interfering with government.

        Worshippers are “We The People”, and as such, we worshippers have the right to interfere with government.

        I already showed that Jefferson attended church in state. He did not write that letter to the Baptists to tell them to sit down and shut up.



  10. It is obvious that US is not a Christian nation. I mean when I go to church and sit next to a guy, do I even know he is a true Christian? He might be singing and donating. He might even be volunteering. But is he doing this out of love for God and neighbor? Or was he just doing these for praise or social standing?

    I am not saying this to doubt the faith every single person I see in church. I am just saying that we cannot even be sure about the faith of the person next to us. How then can we call US a Christian nation?

    If you read though history you will see that there has never been even one Christian nation. Who enslaved the native Indians and Africans? Christian nations! Who invaded many Asia countries in 1800’s? Christian nations! Who dropped bomb in Iraq when there weren’t any WMD? Christian nations!

    Then you got to ask yourself: Are these Christian nations really Christians? Of course not! Jesus would never enslave Indians and Africans. Jesus would never invade Asia. Jesus would never drop a bomb in Iraq over innocent families.

    I got to agree that calling US (or any country) is a Christian nation HARMS the faith rather than building it up. Politicians often use the name of God in vein, for their own money and power. They are not good representatives of Jesus. Really this shouldn’t surprise us. Because look at these politicians’ backgrounds. Many are lawyers, one of the darkest industries where even “alleged” murderers like OJ Simpson can walk away free. The point is not for justice, but to make money.

    Others are billionaires like Trump, who pretty much admitted that he use his wealth and influence to “rape” any women he lusts after. And these are the politicians that runs the US. Honestly do we really expect anything Godly from these lawyers and billionaires?

    When is the last time a pastor gets into politics and gets anywhere. Oh right he got shot in the face (Martin Luther king Jr). You think this “system” will let a true man of God, who loves God and love his neighbors, to get into power? Of course not! There is no corrupted money and power in that. And if I am already a corrupted politician, why would I want a Godly pastor in the White House? So he can stop all my corruptions? So he can expel me and put in actual Godly leaders?

    Honestly guys leave politics alone. It is a lost cause to try to find that “Godly” politician. If another Martin Luther King Jr shows up, they will just shoot him in the face again.

    BTW I am not saying these to say it is rich vs poor. It isn’t! Both the rich and the poor needs Jesus. The rich suffers from pride and egos, forgetting God and focus on material things. The poor suffers from jealousy and envy, angry at God and focus on what they don’t have. Neither are better or worst than the other. God gives more to some and less to others. Yet we all face temptations to sin in different ways. We were ALL LOST in the darkness. But God has shown us the light.

    All we can do is to love God and love our neighbors as ourselves, and let the light of God shrines through the darkness. God is the only way to end both pride and jealousy for mankind. God is the only way to end all conflicts and instead fill everything with love. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. (John 1:5)

    Liked by 1 person

    • Chips,

      Well, since Jesus is God, Jesus would invade Canaan, getting rid of all of the “ites”, and renaming the country “Israel”. Believe it or not, God is not against war. Jesus gave an example of war, in his example of “counting the cost”, giving an example of how many men you have to fight against another nation with more men.

      US Citizens are “We The People”, and it does not matter what your occupation is, whether it be an electrician, plumber, or PASTOR, PREACHER, TEACHER. We all have the right and duty and honor and privelege and obligation and responsibility to be involved in our government of the United States of America in any fashion that we can SERVE the people of the United States of America.

      Notice the word “SERVE”? That is indeed a Christian duty and responsibility, too. By SERVING the WE THE PEOPLE, you are doing a the right thing, as a Christian.

      I’m not too much of a fan of those who disparage the government the way that they do today. Anarchy is not the godly way of doing things, either. God expects JUSTICE, and gives us LIBERTY.

      Yes, I believe that we are a Christian nation. We just have too many Americans desparately denying it. Including Christians. But, our founding was indeed founded upon the principal of Christianity. And that, is what makes us a Christian nation. Regardless of how many non-Christians we have, they live in a Christian nation. Regardless of the conduct of those claiming to be Christian, we are a Christian nation. Regardless of the naysayers, we are a Christian nation.

      But, we should not get that confused with a theocracy. There is a difference. Our founding fathers laid the foundation, and it (America as a Christian Nation), cannot be changed, because Americans have RIGHTS that NO OTHER NATION HAS, based on our Declaration of Independence.


      Those rights are God given, NOT man given. No other nation on the face of the planet are granted those God given rights as America does.

      What God gives those rights but Jesus, the Christian God? Does the God of Islam? How about the God of the Old Testament? Nope, not him either. Jesus gives us LIBERTY.

      Sincerely, and Respectfully,

      Ed Chapman


      • Was Israel even a Godly nation? Sure God did ask them to invade Canaan. But this is same Israel who worshiped the Golden Calf. This is the same Israel that got scared and refused to invade Canaan, until after Moses died.

        I guess we can argue that Israel was “Godly” during the time of Joshua. But any such Godliness was temporary. Very temporary. Even during Joshua’s reign Israel didn’t follow God perfectly. And shortly after Joshua’s death Israel, within 1 generation, Israel was already worshiping Baal. And the same God drove Israel out of their lands and hand them over to their enemies.

        I cannot conclude that God is pro-war from reading the bible. Yes God certainly ordered the destruction of Canaan. But nowhere did God said he was super happy about it or he rejoiced. Neither did God rejoiced during the time of Noah and later Sodom, even when they would murder anyone to take whatever they want.

        It is almost like your own son clearly, undoubtedly, brutally murdered someone in cold blood, and you are the only executioner in town. You must execute your own son to serve justice. But this doesn’t mean you are going to be happy or rejoice about that. God hates the sin but loves the sinner. That’s why I don’t think God is pro-war.

        I have read in many other place that God is happy and rejoiced when a prodigal son and other sinners returns to him. That’s why God is love, where he is very patient with even the most sinful people.

        No one is going to deny that God founded Israel. But was Israel a Godly nation? If we read its history, nope. We can even say Israel disobeyed God much more than it obeyed God. The high priests themselves, not some cult, crucified Jesus.

        Similarly no one is going to deny that US was found on Christian principles. But was US a Christian nation? Once again if we read history, nope. And even today we see this. No one promote sex outside of marriage, divorce, un-responsible party life, homosexuality, abortion and the theory of evolution NEARLY as much as the USA. And no other nation AUTO-DENIES job application from Christians for secular university jobs. Christians cannot even teach non-related things like Forestry or math in a secular university. They can only work for a Christian university. And now they are also going after Christian universities. Lawyers from Christian universities are getting denied jobs because they say a marriage must be between a man and a woman.

        Do you think Iran would deny a professor for teaching when he is a Muslim? Of course not! That secular university in Iran would welcome that Muslim professor. So then how can US be a Christian nation when it auto-denies all Christians trying to be a professor?

        Conclusion: It is dangerous to identify a group of people as Christians. Because for every single evil and sinful thing they do, they turn non-believers away and shame true Christians.

        If a so-called Christian take drugs, drinks a lot, have both homo/heterosexual sex with a new person every weekend and aborted 3 babies already, don’t you think that person brings shame to other true Christians? Now the church MUST love this person and try to restore that person in Christ. That person must not be rejected if he/she turns back like the prodigal son. And that person must always be welcomed into the church, as a non-believer, to learn and interact. However should the church be quick to call that person a true believer while he/she is actively sinning and isn’t even repentant at all of their ways? Come on at least be repentant then maybe the church can help him/her out of the sins!

        Instead each Christian must be identified individually. Their love for God and love for neighbors must be displayed, as a sign that they are true believers. This is the identify mark of the presence of the Holy Spirit. If someone doesn’t love God and doesn’t love the least of these brothers and sisters, everything else doesn’t even matter at all.


      • Chips,

        OK, so let me try to sort this out.

        First, I would like to say that the Children of Israel is no different than any Christian. Christians sin, too.

        Stop me if you heard this one (I’m kidding):

        Moses was considered a “redeemer”. Jesus is considered a “redeemer”.

        Egypt was bondage. Sin is bondage.

        Moses was given a patern of the Temple (Tent, if you will) of God. Our bodies is the temple of God:

        The Children of Israel wander in the desert. Christians wander thru life as a Christian.

        The Children Jacob (Israel) “wrestle with God”, So do Christians.

        The Children cross the Jordan River. Christians die

        The Children of Israel enter the “PROMISED LAND”. Christians enter “ETERNAL LIFE (The Promised Land).

        Do you see the parellel? Similarly, the stories of Noah, and Sodom also have a spiritual story to tell, not just a carnal story.

        Many believe, for example, that the carnal history story of Noah’s Ark is a spiritual story about the upcoming rapture. And, the story of Sodom is a spiritual story about hell.

        Jesus showed that Jonah was a prophet. All the Prophets prophesy about Jesus, so said Jesus. I get kinda tired hearing in church that Jonah was a bad man, because he didn’t want to go to Ninevah. Big whoopie doooo!!!! No, Jesus said that he was a prophet, and prophets prophesy about Jesus, and he gave the example that as Jonah was in the belly of the fish for 3 days and 3 nights, so shall the son of man be…” But no one wants to talk about Jonah in that regard. He’s just a bad man because he disobeyed God. Ya…whatever.

        Do you know what that war was really all about in regards to Cannan? It was land that was promised to Abraham thru Isaac, and regardless of what you may think of the Children of Israel, that land belongs to them, and they are indeed obligated to fight to defend that land. Yes, war, if necessary. And it does not matter in regards to their godly conduct, or not godly conduct. The land was promised to the seed of Abraham thru Isaac, not based on the Children of Israels conduct, but of Abraham’s conduct of faith. God will give it to the Children of Israel FOR HIS OWN NAMES SAKE (Caps only for emphasis), because God is telling a spiritual story about Eternal Life, thru the children of Israel.

        Here is what Jesus said, that I tried to convey in my earlier comment:

        Luke 14:31-32
        31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?

        32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.

        Here is really the only difference between the Children of Israel, and Christians:

        Christians have Jesus as a perpetual sacrifice for sins committed by Christians. The Children of Israel are unable to perform sacrifices without a temple, as the Law of Moses indicates, and even if they did have a temple, they must continually sacrifice for sins. We Christians…we got Jesus, sacrificed only once, but sacrificed for future sins committed by Christians, as well.. Again, Christians sin, too.

        Christians are not righteous based on anything they do. Neither are the Children of Israel. The Law of Moses does not make anyone righteous, for all have sinned, and all continue to sin…until we die.

        If you are looking for the perfect Christian, I highly doubt that you will ever find one. For what man has never hated his brother? What man has never lusted after a woman in his heart?

        I go to a church that drug addicts go to. Most are in treatment. Some relapse. Most have tons of tattoos, piercings, etc. Some have had abortions, etc. The preacher teaches these people as if they were CHILDREN, and they respond. Are you really going to look down on these people when they do relapse?

        Now, we know that homosexual activities are a sin. So, if you find a church that it is openly accepted, and they can be called a Christian, leave that church and find another. IS that so difficult? Or, do you have a need for a particular denomination? I prefer non-denomination where the preacher reports, I decide, meaning that I have a bible and I can read and comprehend.

        And, one more thing, people are not utilizing elders. Elders who have not lived life already really need not apply, in my opinion. Elders are supposed to be wise, and being wise, they can give sound advice. And that elder does not have to be a member of a church denomination. It could be your grandpa, for all I care.

        But, I didn’t know that Billy Bob (Not his real name), being a professor, introduces himself as a Christian that wants a job as a professor. Is that normal protocol for any job application?

        As one Christian comedian once said, “I don’t care what your religion is…can you fix my toilet?”


        Ed Chapman


      • Once again no one is going to deny that Israel was a chosen people. They are indeed God’s people and the land of Israel belongs to them.

        But even then when Israel start worshiping Baal and sacrificing their own children to false gods, our almighty God send enemies against Israel and drove Israel out of their own lands.

        If this is what God is willing to do against Israel, God’s own chosen people, what do you think God is willing to do against USA when USA starts worshiping Baal? Once again no one is going to deny that USA was found on Christian principles. But to God that doesn’t even matter. What matters is if USA today is worshiping God, or is USA worshiping Baal?

        Who are the “Baal” of USA? There are thousands of them. Theory of Evolution, humanism, money, power, pro-choice freedom (including abortion), addictions, etc.

        Now I agree with you that Christians won’t be perfect. Yes Christian sin all the time. But all sins can be forgiven. What cannot be forgiven is the rejection of God. And USA is rejecting God.

        Ultimately here is the reason we should stop called USA a Christian nation: Because if USA is a Christian nation, then EVERY single sinful ideas that USA supports will be categorized as Jesus and as Christian. If USA supports abortion, then Jesus and Christians support abortion. If USA supports sex before marriage, then Jesus and Christians support sex before marriage. And if USA supports the theory of evolution, then Jesus and Christians supports the theory of evolution. Then we, as true Christians, will be lump-summed with all these non-believers out there.

        Now once again we MUST love non-believers and preach the gospel to them. I am not looking down on non-believers. I myself was totally lost in the darkness before Jesus found me. So SHAME on any so-called Christians that look down on non-believers. But do not let non-believers influence us negatively. And do not be lump-summed with their sins. They are not equally yoked with us. We are to be light of the world and be a witness to them.

        What defines USA as a Christian nation? Is it people in our churches? Nope. USA is a nation. If USA is a Christian nation, its laws and systems would at least support the existence of God. But it doesn’t!

        We don’t have to look very far. Go into a biology class in high schools in the USA. Look at the books. Does it mention the possibility of God’s existence? Of course not! But there are plenty of claim of how humans came from APES, and apes came from RATS. So that is what the children in USA is learning, that humans are just “slightly more advanced” rats!

        If these are the kind of things the USA government want to teach the children, how can we claim US to be a Christian nation?

        USA today is all about political correctness. So they are going to avoid offending anyone, EXCEPT of course the Christians! That’s why they can teach our children that humans are just “more advanced” rats, and no one can find it offensive. If we Christians find it extreme offensive, that is just too bad for us.

        If we say that God meant marriage to be between a man and a woman, and we refused to let a homosexual couple use our church building, the way the sociality is going I might be found guilty of hate crime and discrimination against homosexuals. Yeah maybe it is offensive to homosexuals but hey this building belongs to us Christians! Where is our rights?

        I didn’t make this kind of stories up:

        Meanwhile if I got to Disneyland and want to enter Club 33 to spent money, they can deny me no problem. Wait a minute! How is this not discrimination? How is this not hate crime against the “poor” or less privileged?

        And once again we don’t have to look very far. If I dressed up as a homeless person and smells like a homeless person, do you think I can sit down in your neighbor restaurant without getting kicked out? Of course I will get kicked out! Is this not discrimination and hate crime against the homeless man?

        So if our church refuse to host homosexual weddings, we might get sued for thousands of dollars and even face jail time. But Disneyland can deny people entrance to Club 33 and no one questions them. And anyone can deny homeless man entrance.

        That’s why I say in the USA, People will let anything go but ALWAYS go after the Christians. If a so-called doctor helping a selfish young man kill his parents for inheritance by so-called euthanasia it is perfectly fine. But if you dare to kill a crazy and wild “endangered” animal to protect your children we (in the no so distant future) will throw you in jail! Sorry in case you didn’t get the memo the life of that endangered animal worth more than you and your children. Because you are just a rat and your children is just smaller rats.

        That’s why it is dangerous to call USA a Christian nation. I as a Christian certainly do not want to be associated with what some of these people in USA are doing and believe in. Once again I am not looking down on them but I feel sorry for them. They are lost in the total darkness, just as I once was, and they need Jesus to see the light.

        I rumbled a lot but I do hope you know where I am coming from now. God bless and have a wonderful Christmas! =)


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